Magics in a new world

[rebelshade]

So I have a fair amount of world building to do for my new world/story setting. In fact, I have a nice "to do list" of things that needs fleshed out. One of those things is magic.

Now, yes since I frequently play games like Dungeons and Dragons, I'm familiar with how their magics work. But as a Christian, I also understand that magic can be perceived as a negative thing. So I'm a little lost for what direction I want to go with it in my story.

Here's what I have so far.

* Magic is rare, not unheard of, but not so readily available to be used by anybody at any time.
* It is extremely rare for any one person to have more than one ability. Which makes me think more of super powers (except those can be pretty popular)
* I want some of the "magic" to come from Marteth, (God) a.k.a. the Maker. I would think these would be considered more of "gifts" than "magic".
* So far, there are only a few types of magic:
....* healing magic
....* protective magic
....* Deceptive magic- this would come from Opotat, (the Opposed)
....* some kind of destructive magic- this would also come from Opotat

My MC has a unique ability that doesn't fit into any of these. She is able to hear a language, and after hearing it for a little while is able to understand, speak and read it as though she had always known it.

My main supporting character has the ability to call upon a fire that resides in him, and project it outward as an attack (in larger bursts) or in smaller burst to light fires, warm items, and any similar actions that can be done with fire. I keep thinking so some scripture in the Bible about "a consuming fire" that makes me think of his ability.

The dragons of my world can breath fire, though I haven't decided if that in itself is because of magic or simply because they just can breathe fire.

There is another race in this world, large, intelligent cat-like creatures who apparently have the ability to harness or "tame" elemental magics. A secondary character who is of this race is shown in the story as having already tamed water, earth and fire, all three evidenced somehow in his fur, but has yet to tame wind. So I take it that I'm going to have some kind of elemental magics. But I don't know if those come from Marteth (God) or are just part of the world? I don't want them to be from Opotat, he only has the abilities to destroy and deceive. If it helps, most of the large cat-like race believe in Marteth and follow him. So they would be opposed to use any magics or gifts given by Opotat.

Thoughts? Opinions? Suggestions?

This setting needs a lot of work done. Something I had originally planned to do before ever starting to write the story, but no, NaNoWriMo came about and the d6 told me to write this one for it.

[Kessie]

Oh boy, worldbuilding! *rubs hands together*

I love reading about magic in various worlds, because everybody tries to do it differently. But in general, magic comes from:

An external (usually divine) source
Inside the person
From the Earth
From elsewhere in the universe (like the stars, Starpact Warlocks in D&D come to mind)

And say you're working with a world in which magic is an inherent naturally occurring force, like nuclear power or solar energy or gravity. Say when Marteth made the world, He put all these energies into the world for people to tap and use. Certain special powers come directly from Him, of course.

Dragons breathing fire is a whole different ball of wax. In Dragon Champion, they have a kind of gall bladder filled with something like napalm that lets them spew a couple of fireballs, and then they're out of fire for a few hours. In D&D, the dragons basically vomit pure magic at you. So that can work pretty much however you want.

[yoda47]

I like what you've got there, sounds interesting!

I don't know if this will help or not, but here's how the magical system in my fantasy world works:

Magic is fairly common, and is God directly intervening in the world (sort of like in the Old Testament with the prophets and such). Anyone can do do magic, but for most the process is like praying and asking God to do something, sometimes the request is granted, sometimes not.

For wizards, magic is like a spiritual gift, they can do it unless God doesn't want them to, but he often lets wizards make mistakes so they can learn from them and come closer to him.

(side note: Ard is the analogy for God in my series, and "wizard" means "follower of Ard". Technically, any follower of Ard is a wizard in that world, but the term has come to be used to refer to just ones with the gift of magic.)

For the mechanics, the basic format of a "spell" is a prayer, asking to use Ard's power to do something VERY specific. For this reason, people with the gift of magic who wish to become practicing wizards (ones who are trained in magic and use it in a role sort of like a priest or pastor/prophet) go to the Wizard's College and learn a lot of math and science so they understand how and what to ask to accomplish a certain goal. (Can you tell sci-fi is my other great love? )

There's also bad guys with magic, but that comes from another source...

[Kessie]

Yoda: I find that when writing or reading fantasy that uses God as the source of magic, God kind of becomes like Divine Electricity. He's just a power source to be tapped to do stuff you want to do, which kind of degrades Him to be at the beck and call of Man.

I find it too confining, because magic is Black or White. There's no Blue or Red or Green. If you have dragons that use magic, is that from God or the devil, since dragons are a symbol of Satan? And what if you want a dragon who is a good guy?

I just can't make it work in my brain.

[choosybeggar]

rebelshade

Sounds pretty good how you've got it already. Since you're making a new world, the definition and properties of magic can be whatever you want. Giving glory to God, however subtly, I consider key to making a good setup for your world, and I think you've got that.

@everyone, but Kessie in particular...

I've been wanting to make a blog post defining magic for a while, but never got around to it. I'll make this do. I think that defining what magic is in the REAL world makes defining any fantasy magic easier. If this doesn't fly for you, chew the meat and spit out the bones.

And so.

Click on the link. I didn't want to make you have to read it, because it's LONG. But if you do read it, does that help you? It doesn't cover absolutely everything about magic and the Christian counterpart, but should be enough of a base to start with.

Attachments:

[Kessie]

I read your article twice, and I'm not real clear on your point. You said:

1: What you call some thing or event that can't be explained by your experience. To extrapolate--something that can't be explained by science.
2: Using or giving power and authority in an unauthorized way. Biblically, doing something supernatural outside of working with God and community.

...So magic is there by the second definition. It's real, it follows the normal rules, and can even be the exact same stuff that would qualify as a miracle of some kind. The one defining difference is relationship.

Magic is out of relationship, and therefore bad, and miracles are in relationship, and therefore good.

A miracle can be weird, "impossible," and can offend, but it's sanctioned by God.

I understand that you're saying this is magic in real life. And I agree that there's all kinds of things that we still don't understand that might as well be magic (like quantum physics). While other things like speaking with the dead and fortune telling are dabbling in the spiritual realm and forbidden by God, mostly because they will kill us. Like a parent telling a kid to not stick things in light sockets.

But when it comes to a fantasy world, does it have to be so cut and dried?

I've always mused that in our world, if talents like playing the violin, or painting a picture, or dancing, or designing buildings, are inherent gifts given to people by God (and what they do with these gifts are entirely up to the people in question), then in a fantasy world, magic ought to work the same way.

"Magic" in fantasy is just a term for being able to conjure fireballs, or teleport, or fly, or heal wounds, or make plants grow really fast. Things we can't do here, but would like to.

In a fantasy world, there ought to be a nice slice of gray area. All magic shouldn't be limited to coming from God or Satan, because there's no gray areas to explore.

Even in the old Jedi Knight games, there were "neutral" Force powers, that belonged to both the Dark and the Light. You just got different powers if you leaned more toward the Dark or the Light.

[choosybeggar]

Whoah! That was a fast reply. Thank you for giving it thought.

I agree with you, at least mostly. In fantasy, of course it doesn't have to be cut and dried. (Other than the fact that you, the author, have made the rules for how things are.)

I somewhat disagree with your disagreement, or something like that. There are plenty of gray areas in real life, simply because we haven't figured it all out yet. I've seen miracles, but only a few, and only a few kinds. There are LOTS of things to discover about the good side.

MAJOR edit
...
/MAJOR edit

Here's what connects what I'm saying with what you're saying...I think. Some of the rules I talked about are neutral. Good one: Honor your parents, and you'll have a long, blessed life. Bad one: kill someone and you'll have consequences. Neutral one: rub the desk and molecules come off.

Really, all the rules are neutral, just the results aren't. So it's the character of the person using the rules that makes the difference. Christians do good things with the rules, and lost people do bad things. So magic, in the fantasy sense, will follow the person's position, not the other way around.

(Note: mistakes are made all the time. The Sons of Thunder wanted to destroy a city. Bad? Yes. Could they have done it? Probably. Were they Christians? Yes.)

A gift would be neutral. All gifts would be neutral, to be used for good or bad. Fireballs and engineering skill would be on par in a fantasy world, by these rules. Both gray until given to any particular person.

Now the only thing is how you define your people. Christian and lost? Just different religions? No real God? Only that can change the "grayness" factor.

Man! I'm still not sure if I've crossed the gap here. But yeah, I think it's your definition of people and not your definition of magic that makes the difference between good and bad.

'Nother edit. I think we're thinking the basic same thing, just from different angles. I do hope I'm speaking your language well enough. So close to saying the same thing, just...different. Heh. Life.

[Kessie]

Gee Rebelshade, sorry for hijacking your thread.

Choosybeggar: Now I'm curious about what went in that major edit there. :-)

So we've moved from where magic comes from to what people do with it. That's all in the fun of writing characters. Good guys use their powers for good (usually) and bad guys use their powers for bad (usually).

I'm currently working on a story where the bad guy, known as the Oracle, is working behind the scenes to bump off one of the main characters and befriend the other. The Oracle's powers are, naturally, time-scrying. He sees all the futures, but he's rigging events to bring about the future he wants. He's breaking all kinds of chronomancer laws. :-)

[newburydave]

Kessie;

It sounds like your "Oracle"operates the same way that that some theological viewpoints use to describe "their understanding" of the foreknowledge of God.

That's kind of a tricky theological situation to write into your story. I'm sure you've thought it through though.

Back to the general question: It seems to me that one thing that poorly written fantasy story worlds lack is some kind of consistent theological framework to determine what is allowed, how it's done and where the power comes from. Unless I'm reading this thread wrong it seems that this is the central topic here.

In my semifantasy stories I've always tried to mirror the spiritual realities that we live in the midst of as Christians interacting with the Holy Spirit.

ie. Good supernatural powers - analog of the Gifts of the Spirit that are operational in the Church today.

Evil supernatural powers - analog of the kinds of demonic powers that demons exert through demon possessed, or the kind of powers that those who have a "familiar spirit" have manifested both historically and today.

I've found this is a profitable study both in the Scriptures and in legitimate historical accounts.

The demons I've faced, mostly as a rescue mission pastor, were characterized by hatred, rage and the power to confuse. Chaos seems to be the Devil's chosen modus operndi.

As to your good POVs only having one "gift", I think you may be limiting yourself too much there. If you read any sound book on Spiritual Gifts, (ie. Your Spiritual Gifts Can Help Your Church Grow; Wagner, Regal books) you'll find that though all believers are typically given at least one gift by the Spirit (to be able to buidl up their church), it is more common for the Lord to give complimentary gifts to those that He chooses to use in special ways.

For example; Gospel Ministers frequently are given Prophesy, Teaching, Wisdom and Mercy/Hospitality; or some similar set of complimentary gifts that will be needed to adequately carry out their calling in the Lord's work.

During the 20 years of my active ministry I was ignorant of the Biblical teaching on Spiritual gifts because our churches had a prejudice against such things. (Caused by some old conflict or split with another church tradition I think)

When I was introduced to the biblical teaching on this matter and went through an evaluation to localize my own gifts in the Spirit I was astonished to see that the Lord had given me the exact gifts that I needed for the unusual work that I had done. (Ahem, well He is Omniscient now, isn't He. I should have expected that.)

This also explained why there were some area's of ministry where I was blessed with effectiveness that were easy to carry out, but there were other areas that I worked at and rarely got any results. For instance, I've read book after book about personal evangelism (the Prayer of Jabez for one) but I was never able to do that myself. I'd follow the methods that the authors used to bring person after person to Jesus and they wouldn't work for me at all. I don't have the Evangelism gift, my areas of spiritual effectiveness were different.

In the superhero comic books that someone mentioned, like the X-Men, there is a group of superheroes with complimentary talents. To my mind that's a picture of a properly organized, spiritual church. However leaders, the people that you would make the main POV of a story, generally have multiple gifts rather like a tool kit with which to practice the spiritual craft God had put them to do.

Deacons have one unique set; Song/Worship leaders another; Prayer warriors/Prayer team members another; Church secretaries another; etc.

You are designing your story world so you should do what you feel comfortable with, but I feel that you might find it helpful to look at the rich spiritual examples we have right in our own Christian communions and heritage.

One reason is that there is an appeal in this system that is programmed into us by God. We instinctively recognize it because it is part of our humanness, the image of God in us that may be defaced by sin but cannot be destroyed. When you establish this appeal then more people will read you books and absorb the thematic messages and values that you offer them in your stories.

And that is why we write, is it not?

Write on Sis

SGD
dave

[Kessie]

you'll find that though all believers are typically given at least one gift by the Spirit (to be able to buidl up their church), it is more common for the Lord to give complimentary gifts to those that He chooses to use in special ways.

Yeah, I always wondered if spiritual gifts were the same as the talents in Jesus's parable, and some had more return than others, except the guy who buried his in the ground.

There's also more gifts than in Paul's list, I was surprised to find.

Ex 31: 1-11 Then the Lord said to Moses, “See, I have chosen Bezalel son of Uri, the son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah, and I have filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, ability and knowledge in all kinds of crafts— to make artistic designs for work in gold, silver and bronze, to cut and set stones, to work in wood, and to engage in all kinds of craftsmanship.

Moreover, I have appointed Oholiab son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan, to help him. Also I have given skill to all the craftsmen to make everything I have commanded you: the Tent of Meeting, the ark of the Testimony with the atonement cover on it, and all the other furnishings of the tent— the table and its articles, the pure gold lampstand and all its accessories, the altar of incense, the altar of burnt offering and all its utensils, the basin with its stand— and also the woven garments, both the sacred garments for Aaron the priest and the garments for his sons when they serve as priests, and the anointing oil and fragrant incense for the Holy Place. They are to make them just as I commanded you.”

Working in wood, and metal, cutting precious stones, sewing and clothes design--all of those are also spiritual gifts straight from God.

Which is why I think the whole "fantasy magic" thing works pretty well when you think of it as just an oddball spiritual gift. And people have them whether or not they're saved. It all comes down to what they choose to do with them.

[rebelshade]

Thanks for the great response, guys. And no worries about hijacking the thread, kessie! (btw, I love the Age of Ice and Fire books, and how Eric has his dragons designed with the bladders!)

@yoda- I love the idea of God being called Ard, and that those that follow him are Wizards. Haven't seen anything like that before.

Just wanted to throw one thing in here real quick, some one mentioned that the dragon is a symbol for Satan. Which could possibly make one believe that dragons are evil. Similar could be said for lions and snakes, for Satan's been compared to both. Yet Jesus is also called the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, and we use the image of two snakes on a staff to symbolize medicine and health. But that's just my two cents on that subject. On to the main point of this thread.

Been doing some reading this morning. God created everything, we're all in accord on this. Also, He blesses His children with spiritual gifts. I think for my world setting I'm going to have it similar to what I originally posted, that all healing and protection "gifts" come from Marteth, and any other kind of unique gifts that may appear. Opotat (Satan figure) was once an angel (or whatever I decide to call them) and was cast down into the world. He has some power over the world, but because he is not God, he cannot create anything. But he can manipulate. So I'll keep his abilities as the deceptive "magic".

For now, I'm still not sure how I want to work the elemental gifts and magics in. I may end up throwing them out. We'll see. As for destruction magic, I would think that a person would first have to be able to create something to use to destroy something else. (You have to create a fireball before you can hurdle it towards your enemies.) Thus, in that case, instead of it coming from Opotat, it may be a gift that has be given by Marteth that has been perverted by Opotat.

I'm really liking the idea of using the spiritual gifts, and plan to study more about them in the near future. Little is set in stone yet, and there's no deadlines bearing down upon me at the moment, so I have time to work it all out. When I finally do get it worked out, I'll more than likely post it somewhere for inspection and thoughts. Until then, your opinions and suggestions and well...I guess criticisms are still welcomed!


In another matter, I've thought of changing the names just a little bit.

From Marteth to Marketh. (The k comes from the word Maker, which is what Marteth is also called.)

and

From Opotat (meaning Opposed) to something using the word Apostasy or Apostate.

Apostasy- meaning to revolt, the renunciation of a religious faith, or an abandonment of a previous loyalty
Apostate- meaning one who commits apostasy
Renunciation- meaning the act or practice of renouncing
(had to look these all up for myself in the dictionary!)

When Satan rebelled against God, he was committing apostasy, right? In a sense, at least?

Thoughts?

[Kessie]

Just for giggles, there's this thing called the Random Word Generator: www.nexi.com/fun/rw/index.html

You feed it 10 words, and it cuts them up and scrambles them up to make new words. You could feed it a bunch of words for Satan or Enemy and see if you get any new name ideas. :-)

[fluke]

In my world, magic and miracle are vastly different in source. They can look the same in effect, but the source makes all the difference. Miracle comes from God; it focuses on who He is. The prophet (or miracleman) seeks His will and prays for His workings. Magic focuses on the caster; does he or she do the right things in the right order at the right time.

These are actually themes explored in my stories "New Life," "My Brother's Keeper," and "To Cleanse the Leper." The last two are still sitting in the broad outline stage. Though click here for a drawing of the last scene in "My Brother's Keeper." It's the last picture on the first page. There's been a major magic vs. miracle battle there already and the big bad is still standing.

[Bainespal]

Sorry to interrupt this great discussion, but this is so cool I have to comment on it...

Sept 29, 2011 9:00:59 GMT -5 yoda47 said:

(side note: Ard is the analogy for God in my series, and "wizard" means "follower of Ard". Technically, any follower of Ard is a wizard in that world, but the term has come to be used to refer to just ones with the gift of magic.)

I love the wordplay! At one level, the English word wizard "coincidentally" happens to be exactly the same as the word meaning "follower of God" in whatever language the people in your imaginary world are speaking. It's brilliant!

[Kessie]

As for destruction magic, I would think that a person would first have to be able to create something to use to destroy something else. (You have to create a fireball before you can hurdle it towards your enemies.) Thus, in that case, instead of it coming from Opotat, it may be a gift that has be given by Marteth that has been perverted by Opotat.

I'm curious about this dark magic. Fire is an element, not necessary something dark. But what about things like vampirism or necromancy or astrology or fortune telling? You know, the real black magic. I imagine all that would be the domain of your world's Satan, since they're all perversions of good magic.

(There's a book by Garth Nix called Sabriel, about people who are good necromancers. They use their powers to kill the undead. I had never thought about any kind of necromancer being good before, but it's certainly food for thought. Another gray area!)

Even in Harry Potter, there were three Unforgivable Curses, the ones that landed you instantly in prison: the kill curse, the mind control curse, and the torture curse.

And I think it'd be safe to call Satan an Apostate. And also all his other applicable names from the New Testament, like the Father of Lies. :-)

In our (my husband and mine) story universe, magic is inherent in the individual, usually only one kind, although the mage can train in other schools of magic. The Multiverse is run by the Creator, but each world is watched over by an Angelus Ascendant. The big joke about Earth's Ascendant is that Gaius is male.

Character: I expected you to be female.

Gaius: I get that a lot.

The series villainess is Inferna, a fallen Ascendant who is chained beneath five worlds, and working through various people, orchestrating the destruction of those five worlds so she can break free. She's not Satan, she's just nearly as bad.