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Post by almarquardt on Dec 12, 2011 13:57:28 GMT -5
Ditto to Dave. Jeff's book is a definite must-read.
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Post by Kessie on Dec 12, 2011 22:26:09 GMT -5
Well, for those of us who don't have the book at present, what's Jeff's advice?
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Post by metalikhan on Dec 13, 2011 0:38:49 GMT -5
Kessie, the book is basically a compilation (organized & somewhat expanded) of Jeff's writing tips on his Where the Map Ends site. Go to wherethemapends.com and click on Tools for Writers, then on Fiction Writing Tips. You can click on each set of tips -- that covers most of what's in the book. (Sorry -- I tried to insert a link but the old techno-beast is waaay balky tonight and doesn't like the link button. ) Perhaps the one caveat is there are items not everyone agrees with. To use italics for thoughts or not is one -- there are editors who do prefer seeing italics. Editors & critiquers alike may hit the foul buzzer for what appears to be an error in verb tense when it's actually the character's inner monologue. And some things may or may not apply if you're tackling a literary or experimental style in your writing. But overall, the tips (and the book) are excellent. Yep, a must-read for any fiction writer!
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Post by Kessie on Dec 13, 2011 1:12:01 GMT -5
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Post by metalikhan on Dec 13, 2011 1:40:08 GMT -5
You're right. Not what Dave was referring to. The tips addressing the issue is #1 An (Accepting) Audience of One and #93 Understand Your Calling as a Novelist. In the book, these were placed closer together -- an excellent, thought-provoking look at how we as Christians should consider approaching our writing.
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Post by Kessie on Dec 13, 2011 12:18:39 GMT -5
Okay, so we're writing to glorify God. (Just read the tips.) I totally agree with that.
Waldenwriter was talking about how much Christianity to put in her stories, though. Does writing to God's glory mean that we write exclusively about Jesus in space, Jesus among the elves, Jesus among the Fae, Jesus the alien? (Which actually sounds pretty cool, come to think of it.) Or do we have to make sure every character has a conversion scene?
Is it okay to write stories that don't mention God at all? Lord of the Rings doesn't mention God. In fact, they pray to Elbereth, which could be looked upon as goddess worship. (I know Tolkien's mythos, but this is just looking at it like the casual reader.)
Personally, I don't want to read a book where the author shoves in a preachy passage, any more than I want to read "hyphenated sex scenes" (where you can see where the story cuts off on either side of it, because the publisher made the author put it in. Exodus by Uris, I'm looking at you).
If the religious debate arises organically from the story, then I'm fine. In Twilight, when Edward and Carlisle debate the existence of a vampire's soul and whether they can be redeemed ... that was fantastic.
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Post by almarquardt on Dec 13, 2011 14:04:24 GMT -5
Those are loaded questions, Kessie, because a lot of it depends on the publisher, the writer and the reader.
All, however, do agree to never preach and any message or conversion must be organic to the story.
It comes to the question: What is Christian Fiction? Unfortunately, no one can agree on that one!
In the end, write what God moves you to write. If it's a subtle message about staying true to your oath as a husband or wife with no mention of God or the Ten Commandments, or a main character dedicating his/her life to Christ, that's between you and God.
And your publisher.
What we need to ask is: What's our genre, who's our audience, and how overtly Christian is our message?
Once those questions are answered, then you seek out a publisher that accepts those kind of books. It could very well fit better with a mainstream publisher instead of a Christian one.
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Post by Kessie on Dec 14, 2011 13:32:53 GMT -5
Mike Duran addressed my thoughts exactly in his blog post today: mikeduran.com/2011/12/how-to-write-like-a-good-pagan/I could never say it as succinctly as he does, though! Edit: And then I read Mike's source article, and it's even better. www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/juneweb-only/6-28-12.0.htmlYou say that Lewis believed fantasy should change the reader. What sort of change did Lewis want the readers of the Chronicles to go through?
I think he wanted to create a climate in the reader, an imaginative and intellectual climate that would make the reader more able to receive the gospel when they heard it. He was preparing the ground for the gospel because he felt that the gospel itself was pointing to the deepest reality about nature—the kind of values and virtues that we were meant to have in order to be fully human. He was trying to make his readers more human. He was giving them the benefit of his deep learning to bring them on in this direction. So in a way he was humanizing his reader. Sorry for arguing so much on this topic. I feel strongly about it and I get all excited when somebody wants to argue about it. :-)
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Post by newburydave on Dec 14, 2011 20:29:44 GMT -5
Okaaay, this conversation is getting interesting. I think the whole idea of an audience of 1 is more fully developed in the book than it is in the tips (haven't checked that but Jeff spends a whole chapter on it and its ramifications in the book). My understanding of his point was that we write for God, himself, nobody else. It's not about writing to appeal to teenaged, socialist, gaming nerds and somehow working in God's glory; but rather writing for God about a topic, in a genre, to please Him in the writing and trust Him to make it useful to reach a target audience. I think the key here has to do with the compromises we allow in our stories. Do we water down the spiritual content, using our wisdom to finesse the story to keep from offending our 16 year old, atheistic socialists and try to slip in some spiritual truth; or do we go full bore on spiritual accuracy and fire, to please Him who called us to write, and trust Him to make it grab hold of the teenaged, atheistic socialists and minister conviction or maybe lead them to repentance. I just started reading 2 Cor in my devotions and came to that verse where Paul says "my speech and preaching was not with mens wisdom, but with the power of God and demonstration of that power". My exegesis of that text will fall far short, I'd suggest meditating on it while asking the Spirit to turn it into wisdom (a set of personal marching orders) in our hearts. Bottom line is that we can do NOTHING without Him; it follows that we need to find how He wants us to write with Him as the Source, Center and Object of our story. ======== Okay, heady stuff, right? Let me give you my own shoe-leather solution, my plan of how I try to do this, as of right now in my development as a writer. I'm sure it will change as I mature (at 63.75 yrs. don't know how much more of that I can take). I put Christian people like myself and my faithful, spirit filled friends, into dramatic situations which mirror what have/may happen in real life (or maybe out of this world) and show how they react as people living in intimate relationship with God. I try to show honestly all the doubts, questions, fears, failures, besetting sins, etc. that we all wrestle with and how the Resurrection Spirit of Christ within us, and His providential care externally makes us overcome these things and the conflict that we face despite our inherent weakness and helplessness. Easy to say, hard to do; that's why we study the writers craft I guess. I've been very turned off by Christian writers who write characters who use the Spiritual gifts and prayer as if they were Wizards or Supermen doing impossible things. So I try to avoid that. My goal is to make my Christian characters believable enough for anyone to identify with, except perhaps for their deep faith. So I suppose I'd have to say that my "Christian Themes" are the living, breathing, walking around expressions of the Intimate Faith that motivate, uphold and actualize my characters. Okay, now that I've totally muddied the waters I'll go back in my corner and let you guys take it from here.. Write on Beloved Siblings SGD dave
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Post by pixydust on Dec 17, 2011 0:34:12 GMT -5
Mike has pretty clear views on this--we hash this subject out a lot in our writer's group cause we're all Christians but we don't all publish/write for the Christian market. I come from a bit of a different place as I don't write for the Christian market. At all. In fact even when I was trying I didn't do very well. I think I'm just not called to write something that "fits." I truly believe that writing is like any other artform. I want to glorify God with my work, always, but I just write a story (I use the same criteria as when I draw an image--what pulls at me? What sings?). My views come into the story (image) naturally in the plot progression (my world-view on consequence and mercy), but I never--ever--want to insert my views into the character. He/she are their own person. And their story is their own. 1. What do you think constitutes good Christian thematic elements for an Sf story? I think all you need is a human (okay, it can be an elf or a cyborg with humanity) In order to show people what it means to be saved and show the aspects of God (mercy, hope, love) I think you merely need to show them what it means to be human, to be lost and alone, to be in darkness, and then you pull back the veil, little by little and light shines in, a spot here a spot there and soon we see truth begin to emerge from the pages without even realizing it was there. 2. What is your plan to weave Christian thematic elements into your Sf stories? I think I answered that one. I don't plan them. They happen organically. I had many many comments on my novelette Sorrow's Shroud about this subject. The discussion was very interesting on the mag's website. I wish I still had some of it. I'd be happy to email anyone a free PDF of the story if they want it (just PM me your email addy). But it's also on Kindle for $0.99. I think my novella Winter Rose is also a really good example of this in action (it's free right now on Kindle through Sunday). I try to focus on my craft a lot, cause I believe that doing the best work I can do, to the best of my abilities is glorifying to God as well. If we pray and spend time with Him and seek after His will for every project than He'll be sure to guide our imaginations to the right places. Like Dave said: we should let the Spirit guide us. And I've found that most of my stories seem to center around two basic, intertwined themes: Sacrifice & Love And isn't that what it always comes down to in the end, really?
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Post by newburydave on Dec 17, 2011 18:28:21 GMT -5
Sorry for arguing so much on this topic. I feel strongly about it and I get all excited when somebody wants to argue about it. :-) Not at all, advocating for what you strongly believe is not "arguing" in the bad sense. We are commanded by God in one of the prophetic books "produce your strong arguments and reasons." All of Paul's epistles revolve around one or more major "Arguments" in the original, logical sense of the word; a logically reasoned attempt to define or establish a truth based on what we know. That is how rational people present ideas and thoughts, with logical and experiential arguments to support what they say / write. As writers our stories should be "Kinesthetic and Dialogic Arguments" for the truths that we make our characters believe and act upon. I find the ebb and flow of discussion in this thread very refreshing and illuminating. I'm learning stuff, I hope we all are, just from reading your posts and responding. I'm even learning more about my own approach. Discussing it makes me reevalate just what I'm trying to do and whether I'm consistently employing the means to hit my own target. Write on beloved sibs SGD dave
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Post by Kessie on Dec 18, 2011 14:45:06 GMT -5
What is Christian spec fic, anyway? And where do we cross the line? Over on Spec Faith this past week, an article opened the Harry Potter can of worms, and the topic got flogged pretty thoroughly. It came down to the question of, "Is magic evil and are Christians allowed to read it?" Since I've been pondering that, it's been bleeding out into the rewrite of this story I'm working on. The main character is a church brat who never thought too much about his own faith. Except now he can suddenly work magic. The Bible forbade magic. Carda knew the prohibitions well enough--deal in witchcraft in ancient Israel and the penalty was death. He looked down at his hands. Was manipulating space with his hands considered witchcraft? What if he someday stood before God and God said, "Oh yeah, Striders of Chronos are banned from Heaven. Too bad, chump."
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Post by newburydave on Dec 18, 2011 18:52:01 GMT -5
Hey Kessie; It is good to evaluate our "foundations" to see if we are in fact building on the only foundation that can be laid, Jesus Christ. You question reminds me of a thread I was in earlier this year Sharing that S/F can be ChristianWe thrashed a lot of these type of topics around pretty thoroughly. In particular there is a rather lengthy post on the first page in which I developed my theology about Magic / Miracles as manifestations of the underlying spiritual powers who actually govern this natural world of ours. Below that one is another lengthly post where I defend Sf against some of its naysayers in the church world. You might find this thread useful to review, there was a lot of good input from several experienced writers on this topic. Write on sis, He called you so you can do it. SGD dave
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Post by newburydave on Dec 18, 2011 19:04:00 GMT -5
Pixydust;
Sorry for the belated reply.
I just bought ‘Sorrow's Shroud’ for my kindle. Can’t wait to read it.
I found your ‘Winter Rose’ an interesting read, troubling in some ways but interesting; as in "I couldn't put it down".
I guess the dark, gritty realism and the mixture of folk spiritism surprised me a bit, it definitely was not your typical romance; but then I don't fit into the CBA writer stereotype either. I've been told my stuff is almost too edgy for “Christian men” to read, so I think I can understand the “out of the box” leading.
The intensity of your story elements definitely fix the plotline in the mind and point to undeserved redemption in even the worst of circumstances. IMHO if redemption doesn't go into the hardest places of reality, to reach the most depraved and out of the way what good is it? (A bit of personal experience there) Jesus went where the "religious" of his day wouldn't go. He touched lepers and washed Judas’ feet to demonstrate his love and identification with us.
I could definitely see your themes of love and sacrifice shining through clearly, in several instances. So I’d have to say that your “non-strategy” worked.
I find the quote from Lewis, that Kessie referenced, to be quite intriguing. I’ll have to think on that.
I currently try to make it explicit that my POV characters are spirit filled Christians, since as of this writing I feel my call is to write novelized versions of Christian Appologetics. My strategy is to try to show my readers what genuine, Spirit led Christians are actually like. I feel this is needful since the God hating secular entertainment and news industry always try to portray the worst hypocrites as genuine representatives of Christians.
To get back to the Lewis quote; would you say that you intentionally apply it to your stories or is that just the way the Lord leads you? I’ve heard that not too many people are as intentional as Lewis was.
Write on Sis SGD dave
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Post by paulinecreeden on Dec 18, 2011 19:05:25 GMT -5
That would be an interesting read, Kessie - you should do it!
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