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Post by The Blue Collared Philosopher on Aug 6, 2008 21:23:33 GMT -5
Hm...i still find it hard to kill someone and it not be considered a sin...yet i know it IS possible to kill someone and it not be a sin because God has done it, and God never makes mistakes.
I guess it is just thin line to walk on...
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Post by Divides the Waters on Aug 6, 2008 22:55:22 GMT -5
I recently completed reading the entire bible. Can someone point out where all forms of killing a man are considered a sin? Because I'm not sure where that comes from. You won't find anyone able to do it, because it's not in there. Jesus caused a public disturbance, committed assault with a weapon and destruction of property in the temple. Did he sin then? ;D One of my personal favorite WWJD moments, I might add. God commanded capital punishment. Did Moses sin, then, when he applied it? Ah, but one of the modern tendencies is to say "are you going to be an Old Testament believer or a New Testament beliver?" (completely ignoring the fact that Christ Himself said that he came not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it). God's character is multifaceted, but not inconsistent. He demonstrates quite well how much he loves us by showing us enduring mercy, but he also makes clear that it is not without limit, and his judgment is terrible. He also makes clear to us how justice is to be meted out, not only in the Law to the Hebrews, but in the post-Flood injunction to all mankind. None of this did Christ contradict. Moreover, Christ endorsed self defense ("let he who has no sword sell his garment and buy one") and, through Paul, in the scripture quoted by Mongoose, war and capital punishment ("the government does not wield the sword for nothing"--the sword, as a symbol of justice, was used for execution and war, not slaps on the wrist). The "turn the other cheek" scripture, which had to do with personal insults, has been wildly misinterpreted to mean "do no violence no matter what the circumstance." Christ is to come with an army. Do they intend to host a quilting bee? *sigh* Sometimes I wonder if that's the interpretation. For what it is worth in this theoretical proposal: I kill the pedophile, in mercy, and thank God for the honor of participating in His justice. I fail to see how this contradicts, in any way, the teaching of our Lord and Master, the law or the grace of the Holy Spirit. Amen. I couldn't have said it better.
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Post by strangewind on Aug 8, 2008 16:31:55 GMT -5
I hope I'm not misrepresenting myself as being flip about the subject. It is heady and complex. I think the Lord has plenty to say about bloodthirsty men, none of it good. I also think that even those who make a difficult (often split-second, but sometimes deliberate and lawful) choice to exact an entirely just death payment may (and usually do) struggle with the responsibility. But the right thing is often difficult, and sometimes the right thing involves the shedding of blood. Just because a principle of justice has been perverted and abused by both the bloodthirsty and the cowardly, doesn't mean that principle doesn't still ring as clear as a bell.
I pray I fall on neither side of the narrow path.
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Post by Divides the Waters on Aug 9, 2008 0:53:50 GMT -5
Strangewind, I don't think anyone (least of all myself) thought you were being flippant. And I hope that I never have to have anyone's death on my hands. But I do believe that part of being a Christian means living by principle, and that means trying to understand what God means when he tells us something, and what is most important to him. Threads like this are excellent for getting people to think about those times when the decision isn't an easy one, because there is no good choice. But because I do live by principle, I know that if I am ever faced with a decision where an innocent might suffer because of my lack of action (whether physical or verbal), I will make the choice in the best interest of the victim, not the perpetrator. I think anyone reading your posts (and hopefully mine) would understand fully the difference between a bloodthirsty man and a man willing to do what is necessary.
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Post by mongoose on Aug 10, 2008 16:32:05 GMT -5
As I prayed about this I came under conviction for putting such a high priority on convincing people of the righteousness of my position. I find I care less and less about these issues and about where the people around me stand on them. In the last day, Jesus said, many people on all sides of this and every other issue will say to him (and I paraphrase), "Lord, Lord, didn't we do this, that, and the other right, in your name, and believe the right things for all the right Biblical reasons?" and He will say, "Depart from me, you workers of iniquity. I never knew you."
I am in as much danger of this as anyone else, although I'm sure my interpretation of Scripture is correct (otherwise I'd change my interpretation, eh? *grins*). Do I know Him? Jesus also said to seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness. As we draw near to Him and come to know Him more He promises that we will be changed from glory to glory into the likeness of His image. We will become like Him.
So the real question isn't whether we believe the right thing about killing or lying, or whether we do the right thing when given the opportunity to kill or lie. Nor is it even if we believe and do the right thing for the right reasons. Rather, the important question is, "are we coming to know Jesus?" and, "are we becoming more like Him?"
I pray the answer for all of us is yes.
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Post by newburydave on Aug 11, 2008 2:06:48 GMT -5
Wow, This topic is really blooming and growing.
One thing that strikes me is that there have been a lot of very inflated hypothetical situations thrown into the mix which do not reflect the kind of situations that 99% of us will ever face.
We can talk about Nazi's and ravening, pedophile, killers but really the kind of lying and violence that we meet every day has to do with our spouses, parents, co-workers, stores where we shop, the businesses where we work and our next door neighbors not Nazi's and pedophiles. The lies we are tempted to tell tend to be ignoble, utterly ordinary, banal things and the violence tends to be verbal and emotional slights over petty issues.
We don't live in a TV show or movie, nor do we live on the evening news with their accumulation of all that's vile from around the world. With very few exceptions we will never see any violent crime or even petty crime committed. Unless we hang out in the rougher form of Bar-rooms we probably will never see or be involved in a fist fight let alone a gun battle. Nor will we be involved in resisting an evil like National Socialism.
I really think that instead of arguing about extreme cases, which really solve nothing practical, we need to construct our personal morality for the ordinary (we are to pray that we will be allowed to live quiet and productive lives under the rule of just government). After studying the Bible for 37 years I am convinced that this is God's design for us as well.
Now surprisingly enough Peter addresses this very thing in his epistles. Allow me to quote from the American Standard Version which is a very literal translation:
2Pe 1:4-7 (ASV) (4) whereby he hath granted unto us his precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in that world by lust. (5) Yea, and for this very cause adding on your part all diligence (applying all diligence), in your faith supply virtue (Moral Excellence); and in your virtue knowledge; (6) and in your knowledge self-control; and in your self-control patience; and in your patience godliness; (7) and in your godliness brotherly kindness; and in your brotherly kindness love.
This brings out something that is frequently overlooked. The building of Christian Character on Faith (not Law) is an organic progression. Moral Excellence of Virtue grows out of Faith when it is diligently applied.
One might ask how do you "Dilligently apply" faith. I don't know the full answer of that but the partial answer that I do know is that we are to always act consistently with the truths about Jesus and God that the Holy Spirit has made us to believe. Scripture is very clear, once we find the inner peace of God though believing that inner divine peace must become our "ruler".
Col 3:15-16 (CEV) (15) Each one of you is part of the body of Christ, and you were chosen to live together in peace. So let the peace that comes from Christ control your thoughts. And be grateful. (16) Let the message about Christ completely fill your lives, while you use all your wisdom to teach and instruct each other. With thankful hearts, sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs to God.
It is correct for a Christian to say I didn't feel right about it, and so I didn't do it. We can believe God to check us and keep us in the narrow way. I would submit toyou that this it he way of faith. I have been saved from many problems by heeding the inner light or voice and sadly acquired many scars when I thought I knew better.
We have the Holy Spirit living in us to guide us into all truth. But in my experience He only guides us when we need that guidence becaue we are up against a choice. He gives us Wisdom to act correctly in the situation not to speculate about what-if's. "Take no thought for the Morrow....."
We need to learn to listen to and recognize the inward voice of our savior in the ordinary things of life. His voice to our conscience, often feels more like an emotional response to a situation more than a reasoned response. Like the still small voice that Elijah heard, if you will, reminding him of his duty when he was cossetted up in a cave in Sinai. God frequently leads us by giving us "feelings" about things or people because He knows that Emotion always trumps reason when it comes to motivating action.
I'm convinced that this is what Paul talks about in Hebrews when in chapter 5 v 14 he refers to mature believers/disciples who "Because of practice have their senses trained to discern (between) good and evil." This is the result of "diligently practicing" a total Faith in God, living under the rule of a conscience that is trained by the word of God and the communion of the Spirit.
Never ignore it when the Peace He puts in your heart is troubled. As a Christian we must live with a clear conscience, sky blue clear with no guilt weighing us down to harden and kill our conscience. Then when something intrudes, like should be lie to the boss, or our husband or wife to avoid unpleasantness we'll know what to do.
Remember that the peace of God is not an absence of feeling condemned (a hardened conscience will do that) it is rather an active joy and a living peace. The peace of God flows from Him into our hearts. Some call it blessing, a soul happiness.
This is how faith "supplies" Moral Excellence/Vitrue (moral courage). You learn it by doing (like Zen) what the Peace of God teaches you in the smallest most insignificant things of life. Moral Excellence grows out of daily faithful living. Then if a big test comes (and we are praying it won't) we'll know what to do because He's trained us into right sensibilities; and He leads us..
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Post by Divides the Waters on Aug 11, 2008 20:30:00 GMT -5
I don't see it so much as arguing about extreme cases as it is realizing that the principle "I will never lie" may not be sufficient in every situation we encounter. No, I will not have Nazis searching my house for Jews, but the whole point of a hypothetical scenario is to take what we know about ourselves and ask a "what if" question (which, I might add, is the basic scenario at the heart of speculative fiction). So when you have two basic principles, let us say, "I will never lie" and "I will never have innocent blood on my hands," and realize that regardless of whether or not we personally face those situations, they have been faced many times before, and will be again, then you have to ask yourself what prevails in your personal worldview. On the subject of Christianity and nonviolence, there are those who say that they will never lift a hand in violence against anyone. Which is fine and noble, but does not take into account those situations in which violence may be necessary. And if you live wholly by the principle that says "I will never lie," but an innocent dies because of it, do you go away justified in the sight of the Lord? I think, ultimately, that is the point of discussions like this. It's to get us to think deeper, beyond the pale of the ordinary, everyday situations for which a basic principle will apply just fine, and see what lies at the heart when it does not.
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Post by themantheycallcris on Aug 12, 2008 1:15:56 GMT -5
as lovingly as i can put this... God does not contradict Himself. if he says something is a sin, then it is a sin. we should not argue with Him... "trust in the Lord, and lean not on your own understanding". to say that God permits lying is to say the following... ---God says "a" is a sin, and "b" is a sin. God says never to sin. God died for all sins. then God tells you to sin.--- we can spend all day attempting to justify sin, it won't work. lets take the case of nazi's up again. because it's hypothetical, and because the nature of man will fit, we could just as easily replace lying with any other sin. what if the only way to keep the hiding jews safe was to have sexual relations with the nazis. we would not feel so noble about sinning to save lives anymore, especially if it was homosexual relations. or what about idolatry, what if they said they'd never come bother you about jews again as long as you bow down to some man made idol, and declared from your rooftop that the God of the Old Testament is (insert something blasphemous here). pick a sin, and substitute it, for he that brakes part of the law breaks the whole thing. There is one lawgiver, God. let's take this a step further into the personal accountability relm, where we've already headed. someone would say they'd rather kill then allow innocents to suffer. but what if it was an ultimatum to kill your spouse and kids, or let and entire village be raped and then murdered. by the measure laid forth in the arguement for lying, killing our own family would be "the lesser of two evils" (mind you choosing the lesser of two evils is NOT a concept or truth EVER STATED in Scripture). why is it that we as people think that we know better than God. God said to follow His commands, no matter what. yet we say "God, you're only right in this or that circumstances. i'll follow my own judgement in these other cases, becaues You're decrees are not good enough. i'll just decide i'm wiser than You, and ask you to forgive me (with the blood that you suffered and died to share with me God) when this life is all over. one would say that they'd rather save lives than to be concerned with a less important righteousness. but i ask, when was there any more innocent than Christ? who are we, and how could anyone even consider, to say that Christ dying for sin is less of a wrong than letting any other person suffer a temporary circumstance. we consider temporary sufferings to have more weight than our own God. what a shame ... someone please tell me where (anywhere in the Bible) it is plainly stated that sometimes we must commit a littler sin to avoid a bigger sin. and i don't mean show me a place where you think that you have the right to insert your interpretation as the truth of the matter, i mean a place where it is plainly stated. one attempting to do this, who reads every single place that directly says what to do on this subject, will find that EVERY TIME the teaching is always "MAY IT NEVER BE". it was brought up already, but i'll remind us it was said. every man gives an account for his own actions. if we speak out to warn others about sin, and they sin anyway, then God tells us three times in the book of Ezekiel that "there blood will be on their own hands". if nazis kill somebody because we refused to disobey (and therefore renounce!) God, then they will be held accountable for the murder, not us. to answer a question that was asked, no i would not tell the nazis where the Jews were hiding. but i just might consider that Christ is the maker of that nazi, and warn him of his err (even at the sake of losing my life) because God loves the nazi. and if i'm needing something to talk to them about in order to divert them from those hiding, just maybe it would be worth my time and theirs for me to tell the nazi's about Christ. to share the gospel. certainly this would be better than lying! blunt things to say, but i fear that if i do not speak out a warning against lying that there will indeed be blood on my hands. let us not use human reasoning to discredit God. "you can argue with your Maker, but you know that you just can't win"
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Aug 12, 2008 8:04:23 GMT -5
I think it may be time to let this topic go ahead and be done. It's been a great discussion, but there's no conclusive answer that will apply to all people in all discussions.
Great comments from everyone. Thanks for helping me explore this idea. Now let's move on to a new one!
Jeff
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