Therin
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Forward the frontier.
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Post by Therin on Dec 19, 2007 3:20:48 GMT -5
Ok, there's an original thread for this located here: wherethemapends.proboards58.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=genrealternatehistory&thread=1197954237&page=1The basic question here is: "What would the world be like if early Christians had gone East instead of West?" General answer: "Totally different!" Its too big of a thing for one person to work out alone. Hence this discussion board. What would the West, Far East, Middle East, Africa, and Americas be like if Christianity became an "Eastern" religion (in location only) as opposed to a "Western" one? Would we have Christian Ninjas and pagan knights? What would the Middle East be like if the Crusades came from the East instead of the West, or if they didn't happen? There's a million questions to ask; and with that many questions, there are a ton of speculative novels to be written. So we better get started!
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Dec 19, 2007 8:59:52 GMT -5
If you use this thread for discussion, be sure to launch a new thread for the story itself.
Jeff
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Therin
Junior Member
Forward the frontier.
Posts: 99
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Post by Therin on Dec 19, 2007 10:18:23 GMT -5
Gotcha
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Post by rwley on Dec 19, 2007 10:43:59 GMT -5
I see North America as being split up; West and Southwest retained its Indian heritage; Navajo, Hopi, Comanche, Blackfoot, etc. The eastern portions would have probably taken on the more Celtic pagan flavor from the Vikings and Norsemen who came to northern Canada and then moved southward. Seminoles could have stayed in Florida and moved westward into the deep South. The middle section is almost a no man's land where there are just a few nomadic bands who have characteristics of both sides. It would be the place to send missionaries first because they would be less "set in their ways" than either the western or eastern civilizations.
As for South American, the Mayan and Aztec empires could still be going strong because there would have been no Spanish Conquistadors to bring sickness and Catholicism. They could be the "USSR" and "USA" of today. The superpowers.
I see the main Christian nation as being China or Russia. But maybe India as well? Europe, I don't know, maybe still Roman influence?
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Therin
Junior Member
Forward the frontier.
Posts: 99
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Post by Therin on Dec 19, 2007 11:16:11 GMT -5
OK, I've got some information on the Khmer Empire in present day Cambodia. It was founded about midway through the seventh century AD. The capital, Angkor, was the largest pre-industrialized city in the world: sprawling over 1,150 square miles (I think that includes some jungle)! They've got really cool architecture, especially Angkor Wat (but since its design was based off Hindu mythology, I don't know if it would exist in our world ). Anyway, they had war elephants and such, as well as stellas which record their history. Their kings had names like "Jayavarman" (means "victory shield"). It has been theorized that they had an elaborate canal network for irrigation, transportation, and such, as well as "barays" which are something like reservoirs. Their major enemies (which might change completely for us) were the Cham people to the East in south Vietnam and the Ayutthaya kingdom in Thailand to the West. The government of the Khmer empire was a "divine" emperor, but I think we could alter that to divine right, or maybe give them a democracy or something radical. Or maybe our Christian characters could be facing an oppressive regime. Anyway, I hope that sparks your imaginations sufficiently. I haven't actually gotten up to Angkor Wat (even though I live in Southeast Asia), but who knows? I may get around to it before I graduate. More on Southeast Asian kingdoms to come, but don't limit discussion to this region or time. The whole world changes with this shift of directions, and the whole worlds a lot bigger than Indochina. Edit: Oh, and I see that rwley has already started with that. Thanks rwley!
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Therin
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Forward the frontier.
Posts: 99
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Post by Therin on Dec 19, 2007 11:24:25 GMT -5
I see the main Christian nation as being China or Russia. But maybe India as well? Europe, I don't know, maybe still Roman influence? As far as Rome goes, well, if their legionairres aren't wasting time running around looking for Christians to throw to a bunch of maneating cats, then they probably wouldn't have fallen. As far as Russia goes, though, it has more ties with Europe. In fact, "Russia" comes from Rurik (?) the Rus, a Viking who settled there. China, Japan, Korea, Mongolia, India, Southeast Asia, shoot, maybe even Australia and New Zealand. We've got enough cultures to develop into the Eastern equivalents of the European Christian kingdoms of the real world.
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Post by scholar on Dec 19, 2007 12:09:03 GMT -5
The first nation-state to have Christianity as its official religion was Armenia (301 AD). Christian communities existed in this region not too long after the crucifiction. About a quarter way through the 5th century, the Sassanid Empire of Persia (modern day Iran) invaded Armenia. Even after a revolt, the Christian Armenians were able to practice their faith without repurcussion (remember that the Persians practiced Zoroastrianism which has a number of similaties with Judaism except for a dualism belief (good vs evil), but had a belief in angels and demons.)
Anyway, what if one of the Sassanid Emperors had an experience like that of Constantine? The vision in the sky, the symbol bringing victory, and then Christianity becoming the state religion. They were already tolerated under the Sassanids. What would have happened?
Also, Islam rose in the 600s. How would this have been effected by a large Christian Empire in what is now modern-day Iran?
Lots of questions.
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Post by scholar on Dec 19, 2007 20:37:13 GMT -5
Did some more research. Christianity did go east. It just never became a state religion. Large communities existed in India, Iran, Iraq, Mongolia, and even China. They belonged to what is known as Nestorian Christianity. These Christian communities existed in large numbers until conquests by Tamerlane left many cities from Damascus, to Tikrit, to India, and Mongolia in ruins. Another thing that stunted the growth of Christianity in Asia was the ousting of the Mongols from China by the Ming Dynasty. Mongol rule did provide stability to the Central Asian region, reopened the Silk Road, and a Christian Chinese Mongol was sent as an ambassador to Europe in the 1200s.
So. There is the framework for the possibility of Christianity becoming a dominant force in the East. Change one or two events: no Tamerlane; no Ming rebellion against the Mongols, or even the sponsorship and promotion of Christianity to a state religion in any of these regions; and who knows?
And if Constantine did not see his vision, and there were no Christian emperors after him; and the persecution continued in the Roman Empire; could not some Christians have fled east into Mesopotamia, bolstering the numbers of the brethern there? Perhaps enough to alter the geopolitical landscape?
Lots of opportunity.
(Sorry for being lengthy - I love history)
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Post by scholar on Dec 19, 2007 20:45:11 GMT -5
Another thought. What if you had an Asian Christian kingdom seeking to push its boudaries further, say into the then existing Khmer Empire?
Remember, many of the Asian countries (or kingdoms) at this time were not as "efficient" as the Roman empire: militaristically in some ways, economically in others; Also Asia is a much bigger place, with more rugged and harsh terrain (be it desert or jungle). So even if Christianity had gone east, it might take a while, flourishing mainly in coastal cities and along well travelled routes such as the Silk Road, gradually spreading out into the more rural areas (much as it did in Europe to some degree).
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Therin
Junior Member
Forward the frontier.
Posts: 99
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Post by Therin on Dec 19, 2007 23:04:57 GMT -5
(Sorry for being lengthy - I love history) lol, me too.
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Post by rwley on Dec 20, 2007 17:33:12 GMT -5
Okay, the main growth of Christianity is centered in Armenia and Cambodia; geographically very different places, but that's okay. The Mings don't only NOT oust the Mongols, they don't even rise to a fraction of their power. No Catholic church rises to spread through Europe and eventually to the Americas. Fast Forward to today. Geographically, the world has not changed. But politically, well, Ankor, Cambodia is the "USA" of today with one exception; they are a much stronger Christian nation than the US is. Chrisitianity is not necessarily the state religion, but it is much the majority in power. It's allies are a re-formed Armenian Union which includes Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Uzbekistan (all of which can be renamed for our purposes). Russia and China as we know them of course do not exist. Since the Tzars did not rise, the Bolvsheviks did not revolt and the most of Russia is tribal in nature. Cambodia actually stretches from Thailand and Nepal all the way to Mongolia. It includes Malaysia, Phillipines and Japan. South America is the other superpower and is split between the still strong and still violent Aztec and Maya. They have combined to convert the rest of the world to their sun and moon worship and use tactics ala Al Quaida. Their current target, Africa. Still very tribal, not much needs to change there I don't think, and they are very vulnerable to attack and to conversion.
Don't know just how N America and Europe need to fit in yet. But, fellow collaborators, how is that for a place to start?
Ooooh, I always wanted to be a collaborator!!!
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Post by scholar on Dec 20, 2007 18:50:51 GMT -5
That sounds good to me, Robi.
I think that in the Americas, the Aztecs would have taken over the Maya, as the Mayan civilization suffered a huge blow due to drought and civil unrest because of that (some reasons given as to the reason the Mayan civilization fell). The Aztec were known to have influence into the what is now the Southwestern US. They never really expanded as far south as South America, where the Inca held sway. So I see two major civilizations in the Americas in our alternate reality. First the Aztec based empire (or perhaps it has evolved to become something else - still worshipping the old gods of coarse) centered around what is now Mexico extending south to the Isthmus of Panama and north to the Rockies. Secondly, an Incan based civiliation controling much of South America. But, hey, perhaps these two have joined forces to form some sort of alliance in the Western Hemisphere, and some religious revolution has given them all one religion. Contoling such vast distances would be very difficult for any civilization, so they might use client kingdoms much as ancient Rome did.
Targeting Africa? How for have these civilizations advanced? I admit that trans-Atlantic travel is possible, but very dangerous in the type of boats that they had in the 1500s. Given a major technological boom, however, anything is possible.
As far as Africa goes, it would probably be very similar today, with eastern Africa and Egypt being the most advanced on the continent. This would mainly be due to the nearness with the Armenian-Cambodian Alliance.
Another thought: The Chinese had reached the western coast of America, from US down to South America, long before the Spanish sent Columbus on his merry way. This is evidenced by very old Chinese anchors and ballast found off the coast. What if there was a defection from our Cambodian empire? Some dissatisfied government employee (or several) who fled across the Pacific and in return for riches (or protection or whatever) gave technological secrets to the Aztec-Inca? Years later, a very advanced, sun-worshipping zealous Aztec empire has taken over most of the Americas except for the far north and the mountainous regions and perhaps the eastern US, where Native American tribes have discouraged further advances.(Seminoles in Fla. Cherkee in middle-eastern US. Natchez on the Mississippi. Iroquois in the northeast. Perhaps with influence or alliance from sea-faring European nations).
Our Cambodian based Christian empire would have a very good navy (as China once did). It would need to to be able to effectively administer government amongst the various islands in the western Pacific.
With a technological advancement in the Americas, the empires there could expand towards Africa (would their intent be colonizations as well as conversion?). With the Armenian-Cambodian influence in eastern Africa, there would be ample opportunity for the two cultures to clash.
Once again, sorry for the length, but the brain juices were flowing.
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Post by scholar on Dec 20, 2007 18:52:51 GMT -5
Oh yeah, if it seems that a lot of what I say is background, it probably is. I like to figure out how and why something came to be, not just what happened.
And if anythin I say does not make sense, I am either under- or over-caffeinated. So please forgive. ;D
Collaborators...collaborate.
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Post by scholar on Dec 20, 2007 19:15:18 GMT -5
As far as Europe goes: Without Christianity (specifically the Catholic church), there would be no unifying force after the Germanic invasions of the old Roman Empire. There would be various Germanic languages on the mainland and British isles. Perhaps a Charlemagne-type emperor would establish a lasting empire. The British isles would perhaps be a Germano-Celtic kingdom by the present-day.
Take what you want and use it. If it sounds bad, chunk it (or alter it).
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Dec 21, 2007 12:52:06 GMT -5
I love what you guys are doing!
Go forth and speculate!
Jeff
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