What if Christianity went East? Collaborative

[myrthman]

It seems to have been established that the Aztecs would be a major world power in the "present day." I wonder, with their moon worship, if the race to the moon that ended in 1969 would have been won by them. Would their devotion to Luna (?) have not only encouraged them in the space race but also sparked a lunar colony that could be thriving in "2007"?

Newton's 2nd Law: F=m*a (or translated to technology: Product = motivation * ability). I bet the Aztec Empire of "1950s" would be HIGHLY motivated to build a city on the moon. Perhaps even motivated enough to overcome or force the ability factor to improve beyond what we have today? To quote scholar, am thinking on less than normal caffeine levels. Thoughts? Questions? Rotten vegetables?

[scholar]

Hadn't thought along those lines, Sean. It would be an intersting line to follow, an alternate space race, perhaps. They would have incentive to do so, to be closer to their moon god, i can't remember his name. We gotta remember, though, that the space race was between the USSR and USA, in a post-Enlightenment, modern era, with the bulk of technological advancement in those two countries. In this world, the Enlightenment would not have happened (at least as we know it). Perhaps, though....

The technology is the question...would any of our civilizations have reached the technological advancement that we have today? Or would they lag somewhat behind us? Or perhaps they would have surpassed us? What kind of technology exists in our alternate reality in the 2000s AD (would we even call it that since those terms are based upon Latin and the works of a Roman Catholic monk?) I think that I will leave technology to those of you who are more science minded than myself.

Rotten vegetables, even, can be used. -- compost fertilizer, the spark that is needed to ignite the fires of the imagination, awaking the dormant seed so that it sprouts and forms a delicious fruit (or vegetables, but i'm partial to fruit).

[myrthman]

I bet the enlightenment would have happened but history may have named it the Great Nirvana. It brings up questions of whether God wanted science and technology to develop. If He did, which is my thought at least, then why would he not also do so in a history in which His Gospel moved a different direction?? I think it's entirely within the realm of possibility for our new world.

[scholar]

Yeah, no problem with that. It would just be different. Question, would there have been the rise of humanism as happened with the Western Enlightenment? Would there have been a Dark Ages in the East to lay the foundations for a Renaissance or Enlightenment? Or would there have been a continued growth of knowledge and technology in the East, within stable governments? This might actually mean that our Cambodian based empire (and their Armenian allies) would have perhaps be further along in technology that we are today. Would Japan still lead in the technology front? or would "Silicon Valley" be somewhere in China? You know, the last hundred years has seen a techonological boom like no other in history. What would have happened had this occured earlier and elsewhere?

Lots to consider... (but ain't speculation fun?!!!!)

[Therin]

Sorry I haven't been posting much, semester just finished and I still haven't had a lot of time...

Anyway, I'll try and sum up what we have so far:

Sassanid Persians: Christian empire founded by a man with a Constantine-type vision before a battle.

Khmer Empire: a strong, Christian nation in Cambodia. Has expanded to control most of Southeast Asia

Aztec/Incan Empire(s?): control(s) most of the territory in central/southern America. Interested in a lunar colony during more modern times.

Europe: barbarian chiefdoms, maybe a somewhat smaller Roman Empire.

Africa: largely undeveloped, as today. East is more advanced due to proximity with the Christian powers.

Russia: tribal communities. Nobody seems to care enough about a vast expanse of tundra to unify them.

North America: possibly some barbarian influences from Europe, but largely still tribal.

Questions:

Are we keeping the Roman Empire intact/semi-intact or letting it get smashed?

Are Japan, Korea, Mongolia, and China independent, (semi)unified, or under the Khmers? Remember that China was probably advanced enough to withstand a Khmer invasion.

As we've begun to discuss, what's the technology level going to be in "modern" times? If Rome didn't fall, then there wouldn't have been any Dark Ages in Europe, and that could have either led to a standstill in technology or an advancement.

Without Christianity in Europe, they wouldn't have done the Crusades, wouldn't have aquired a taste for Eastern spices, and wouldn't have bothered with Marco Polo and such. Taking this into account, what would the relationships between East and West be, if they existed at all?

Quote:
"Lots to consider... (but ain't speculation fun?!!!!)"

You said it, scholar!

[rwley]

I believe it's possible much of the technology could have developed a bit sooner because there would not have been the Dark Ages period where the Catholic Church tried so hard to keep everybody stupid. The Enlightenment would have been sooner and broader as well as the Renaissance. I believe God allows humans to be smart and wants us to stretch our knowledge as long as we're not trying to re-build Babel. But I like the idea of the Aztecs leading the space race. That would explain all those giant drawings in South America.

Basis of conflict for the story since every story must have a conflict; main character A is a Christian in Khmer; that could even be the name of the country; is sent to Aztecs as spy; perhaps he/she is of Aztec descent and would blend in better; build around that scenario.

Important question: What about Israel? We're talking about changes in history only as far back as what, 70 AD or so? Israel is still God's chosen race; what do we do with them and how do they fit into this new alternate present? Super power? Do they have a home country? Six day war? Jerusalem? Can't leave them out of the story, they're too important.

Something else to speculate about . . .

[Therin]

admin said:

If you use this thread for discussion, be sure to launch a new thread for the story itself.

Jeff

I think characters would fall under this description (but good idea though!).

And good point about Israel. Jerusalem has to be destroyed (Jesus said it would be), and I think it is very logical that this would lead to a Dispersion. However, once we get to more modern times we could consider altering their status. Even so, I don't think they should be a superpower (if I'm not mistaken, that isn't on the timeline until around the millenium).

Anyway, this is looking pretty good. Keep up the speculation!

[rwley]

How about this; would it damage theology too much to make Israel more Christian and less Jewish? Could their worship of the Son be upsetting to the Aztec's worship of the Moon? Could that be a source of conflict and since Khmer is Israel's ally they have to get involved because Israel is small and needs help?

Didn't the Aztecs worship the sun as well? Or was that Inca or Maya? I like the idea of Son vs Sun, but Son vs Moon could work, too.

I'm not sure if that's even possible from a Biblical prophecy standpoint. I'm not sure any alternate history can have Israel being anthing but what it is. But, again, this is just specultion, so don't get the tar and feathers out, no burning torches, please.

If that just isn't viable no matter how speculative the fiction, and we all know some things just don't work, then back to the Khmer Christians with the same issue. Worship of the Son vs worship of the Moon. Still an intense conflict especially if the Aztecs have advanced technology and a bloodthirsty mindset. Do they still offer human sacrifices?

And how about this for a twist (I just thought of this as I was typing this); deep in the Rain Forest is a secluded group of Christians who have been slowly but surely developing a little band of warriors called Amazons (or something similar) who start working as guerillas against the Aztecs? They capture our intrepid hero from Khmer who have mistaken him for one of the Aztecs (because of his heritage, he looks like them) and he has to convince them he's one of the good guys.

Just ideas, here, tossed into the salad of speculation. What kind of dressing would you like with that?

[pixydust]

This is a cool idea!!!! I really love it!

I didn't have time to read through all the posts but I did read a few and I just thought I'd add a thought--cause I always have to say stuff.

If Christianity went East then it would seem to follow that the eastern culture would predicate most of society--not western. I would suggest studying eastern cultures and weaving them into Christ's teachings. As western christianity is a high mix of ancient roman beliefs and Christ's teachings as well as a strong mix of other ancient religions (because of the mingled cultures of the day) The Roman church was well known for it's mixing ancient gods and the real magilla (I'm not trying to bash Catholics or anything here--I've got relatives that are Catholic--I just study this stuff a lot. Cultural anthropology is my most favorite subject ever. ). Christianity wouldn't look at all the same as it does today if it had gone East first--And here I'm speaking on a religious level.

You could really go nuts with this idea. I like a lot of the thoughts. I'm looking forward to seeing where it goes.

[scholar]

Hey pixy, you're right that Christianity itself would look much different. Like I said before, history and the development of nations and cultures are my thing. Mostly on the Ancient and Medieval Europe and Rome, so oriental cultures and histories are just a little beyond my ken.
Perhaps looking at how these cultures currently practice Christianity and looking at such practice in history in these areas, then perhaps one reasonably derive a possible practice.
Good point.

Speak up all you want. (We like it when you do., O Great Administrator)

(By the way, just read your excerpt of Golden. Sounds great. I wish you all the best with that.)

[scholar]

Hey Robi. Cool ideas. Hmm. I think I will have Fantasy Island...oh, I mean thousand Island dressing.

As far as Israel goes, the temple would still have been destroyed in AD 70. The Bar Kohba revolt would still have happened in the 130s and in 135 the Jews would still have been banned from entering the city, which would result in a thoroughly Roman city. (This ban lasted until the 4th century when Julian the Apostate allowed them back in.) -- but if Christianity had not become the religion of Rome, there would have been no Julian the Apostate and therefore no lifting of the ban. Or would another emperor have allowed it? Hmm. Another great question is that would there have been a Byzantine empire? (I feel strongly that Rome would have still fallen - the empire was already fracturing well before Constantine.) My question is now: where does Islam fit into this? This religion arose in the 600s. Would it have been relagated to the Arabian peninsula? Would it have spread west into Egypt and Africa and Europe? Throughout the 600s, Jerusalem switched hands several times (Byzantine to Persian to Byzantine to Muslim Arabs.

But if in our world, a strong church had developed in Persia and Armenia, how would that have affected these holy wars over Jerusalem and the later Crusades.

Yikes! My head...me speculating is leading me to even more questions. Perhaps one of yall could just say what happened (i might be able to figure out how and fit that into a new history of the world) and then it would be law. Mwahahahaaha. Sorry about that. Inner evil dictator coming out.

[scholar]

I agree with Therin that Israel probably should not be a superpower in this world. As far as being more Christian, see my above post and how Jerusalem switched hands several times. As far as being a relevant part of the story, I don't know. We might be able to avoid all of that if we focus on elsewhere in the world. For many years, Israel wasn't even in the eyes of history except for several high points. The dispersion, changes of possession, and Crusades. All until 1948 - the formation of a Jewish state.
The Jews could have returned earlier or later.

Another thought...what if there was a division amongst our Aztec empire. What if sun worship was the predominant religion, but if there was also a subversive moon worship cult.

North America (as well as Africa) could be a very good place to set a conflict between our Khmer Empire and our Aztecs. For years there has been a stable truce between the Aztecs and the "foreigners" who have settled along the Pacific Coast of N.A. (our california, oregon and wash.) The desert separating the two has been a natural barrier for years, but with modern technology crossing such terrain is no problem. The truce is broken when a huge blast rips away part of a vastly expanded Tenochtitlan (Mexico City). Seeking to create an atmosphere (chaos) where they could rise to power, the People of the Moon blow up the central government building and the great temple of the sun. They do not want to draw attention to themselves yet. Instead they plant false evidence showing that the perpetrators were "foreigners." At almost the same moment, guerrilla forces assault the colonial headquarters of the Eastern Colonies (somewhere in California), killing the governor and his staff, then dissappear into the night, leaving evidence that it was the Aztecs. The People of the Moon again. With this and a war looming between the two major powers serving as a backdrop, we have our various christian heroes (although they do not see themselves as such) across the globe doing whatever it is they do heading towards a great climax. We could have someone in South America, Mexico, Khmer, North America, Middle East, or wherever. The climax, though, what would that be? How could various people who have no knowledge of each other (or do they?) hope to come together to bring about the defeat of the People of the Sun and the People of the Moon and help establish peace in the name of the Prince of Peace? What subversion, spying, battles, friendships, and betrayals must occur to bring that about - whatever that is?

If it sounds loopy, it is either too much caffeine or perhaps it was the jambalaya.

Just ideas. Whatcha think?

[pixydust]

Thanks, for reading my new baby, scholar! I have a real fire in my gut for that one now. It's really different. I have no idea what God has planned for that one.

I'm not a genius by any means, so thanks for patting me on the head. I've studied Central and South American tribes a bit. I'm gonna keep watching this grow. It looks like a great storm is brewing here.

I think the Orient is an awesome idea too. There's so much you could do with those cultures! Such amazing power and strength in them. And their history is very extensive--predating Christianity by thousands of years. By the time Christ came along China was already very powerful culturally speaking. IE: the Xia dynasty beginning 2200BC

[rwley]

So much of the Eastern philosophy is mystical; that could tie in very well with many of Jesus' teachings because they are peace and serenity driven as opposed to forceful following. Jesus always gives us choice to follow; He does not drag us kicking and screaming into discipleship. So, take the calm serenity of Tao and Buddhist and give them the Christian truth. Could be a much different Christian look than we have today.

No, the Byzantines would not have emerged as they did under Constantine, but there would be something there; perhaps even the Tzar's were more successful in their pursuits of power. No Russian Bolsheviks or Communists in this world!

I like the idea of the two Aztec factions; maybe part of what they are fighting over is colonizing the moon; the one faction sees it as encroachment onto Holy Ground since they worship the moon in all her glories. The sun worshippers see it just a chunck of rock that can be exploited for their own purposes. Our intrepid heros can be either innocent dupes pulled into the miasma of faction fighting or they can be part and parcel of the rebellion. They actually want both sides to worship the Son, not sun or moon.

I think it's time to start getting concrete characters and finding their places in this brave new world (oops, that's been taken, hasn't it?). But that's just me. I'm always in a hurry.

[Spokane Flyboy]

This sounds like it would make an interesting geofiction group as well.