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Post by beckyminor on Apr 23, 2010 21:16:45 GMT -5
Let's see if I can word this concisely...sorry if I ramble in circles a bit.
A situation in my extended family has me thinking quite a bit about what the difference is between "Judge not, lest you be judged..." and having firm convictions that urge you to call sin "sin" when you see it in people you love.
Now, I really feel like the misapplication of "judge not" has given birth to a whole generation of Christians who are wimpy relativists who turn a blind eye to ungodly behavior both within the church and without. Yes, we want to love one another, but I don't believe that includes watching someone you love to behave in a way that is sinful and sweeping it under the rug in the interest of not appearing judgmental.
So what are your thoughts? Is calling someone on the carpet "judging" them? What would God have us do? (I think a task for tomorrow, when I am more lucid, will be to do a pretty serious BibleGateway search on all of this.) But I also covet your thoughts and insights.
*Passes the mic to whoever has a word to share...*
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Post by metalikhan on Apr 24, 2010 4:29:45 GMT -5
Calling a sin "sin" is speaking truth. A lot of folks like to use that piece of scripture exactly how you describe when they don't want to hear that they're sinning or when they don't have the backbone to speak the truth. But the verses (Matthew 7:1-2; Luke 6:36-38) are not telling us to avoid appearing judgmental; they are telling us to be merciful because we, too, will be judged by God with the same mercy we show.
We must be able to discern sin; but we are not to hammer anyone for it or hold grudges. We are to forgive and to give ministry and opportunity for the person to come to reconciliation with God. There is a right way to judge and a right heart with which we are to judge.
We are told to not judge by appearances (John 7: 24). We are to judge rightly, which means we have to judge according to God's will rather than according to our own biases or sins. In every case, I get the impression that we are to judge ourselves more strictly than we judge others lest we fall into the sin of self-righteousness. If we are not examining our own hearts and lives, we risk losing the humility that comes with knowing we are also sinners. Saved sinners, yes, redeemed sinners—but we're still learning about walking with God, about dying to self.
But we also have to remember we are saints in training. In 1 Cor 6:1-6, Paul makes an interesting comment. Although he is talking about lawsuits among believers, he writes "2 Do you not know that the saints will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life!"
God appointed judges among his people in the OT — remember Deborah? He gave His judgments and set forth how these were to be carried out. Jesus exemplified perfect judgment and perfect mercy according to the Father's will. Christ is the standard we strive to conform to as His followers.
**waves the mic around** Who's next?
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Post by beckyminor on Apr 24, 2010 9:08:18 GMT -5
Great thoughts, metalikhan! Thanks for shedding some light on some important points.
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Post by Teskas on Apr 24, 2010 17:09:40 GMT -5
There is a difference between judging and being judgmental. You are right that there is a lot of moral relativism circulating among Christians. (Ask any pastor who preaches Biblical morality from the pulpit, and you will find a story of someone not liking what he had to say and leaving for the church down the road.) The easy route is to say nothing. And the easiest way to say nothing is to notice nothing.
The big thing about sin is that it is so destructive. It doesn't always happen at once. Often it is insidious, working out its effects over years if not decades. If a person could see clearly the long-term effects of what he was about to do, he might step back from the brink.
Then again, some people want to be destructive. A deep desire lies in their soul to express their hatred for wrongs done to them. They are focused on their perceived loss, and will do anything to avenge themselves. Even if it does harm to themselves or the people they love. There are the obvious things like men beat their wives, terrorists blow up airplanes. The subtle things are there, too. The girl mad at her church-going parents has a baby out of wed-lock. (You won't give me love, I'll show you. I'll get my own love.) A boy, angry at a father who divorced his mother long ago, transfers those feelings to his teachers, flunks out of college. (You left me, well, I'll show you. I'll leave you. See how that feels.) The fact is that in both examples the people they hurt the most is themselves and the innocent.
It takes time to work with people, to recover their hearts. To help them see what they are doing is futile. Simply walking up to them and saying, that is a sin, is probably not going to change them.
Family is a difficult matter. If you have a family member who is sinning, I'm guessing that (unless they are youngsters) on some level they know it is wrong. So you aren't going to be giving them a news flash. It might be more productive if you find out what they are really mad about. You can then disciple them into a sinless response to what is hitting their hot buttons.
Occasionally it is necessary to call out individuals. It may annoy them, and they may never speak to you again, but at least you leave them in no doubt about where they are on the road to perdition.
I'd counsel that a person has to be very careful doing this sort of thing. There is always the risk that he is trying to fix someone else because he doesn't want to fix himself. It's the mote and beam thing.
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Post by beckyminor on Apr 24, 2010 18:31:43 GMT -5
Family is a difficult matter. If you have a family member who is sinning, I'm guessing that (unless they are youngsters) on some level they know it is wrong. That's just the trouble, Teskas! It's not a young person, but someone far my senior...someone who "ought to know better." The other sticky point is whether this person is going to choose to live in this sinful choice unrepentant, and what that means with regard to the individual having access to my children. I don't want my little guys confronted with the confusing fall out of the blunders of adults. Not yet, at least, when they are too young to be able to sort through the complexities. Alright...enough of my interjecting. Some enlightening thoughts coming up here!
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Post by newburydave on Apr 25, 2010 16:17:43 GMT -5
Becky;
Here are a few verses that I believe bear on this issue:
Lev 19:17-18 (NLT) (17) "Do not nurse hatred in your heart for any of your relatives. Confront people directly so you will not be held guilty for their sin. (18) "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against a fellow Israelite, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.
The Jameson, Faucet and Brown commentary says;
Lev 19:17 (JFB uses the kJV) thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour — Instead of cherishing latent feelings of malice or meditating purposes of revenge against a person who has committed an insult or injury against them, God’s people were taught to remonstrate with the offender and endeavor, by calm and kindly reason, to bring him to a sense of his fault.
not suffer sin upon him — literally, “that ye may not participate in his sin.”
The Churches in the Anglican-Methodist-Presbyterian tradition held that this verse laid on us an obligation of love, to correct those who sinned in our presence, in an effort win them to the ways of Biblical right living.
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Mat 18:15-17 (The Message) (15) "If a fellow believer hurts you, go and tell him--work it out between the two of you. If he listens, you've made a friend. (16) If he won't listen, take one or two others along so that the presence of witnesses will keep things honest, and try again. (17) If he still won't listen, tell the church. If he won't listen to the church, you'll have to start over from scratch, confront him with the need for repentance, and offer again God's forgiving love.
This is of course Jesus commandment of how to settle matters of offence between believers.
Where you are concerned with the influence on your children then this is a hurt to you as a parent. I feel that there is not much more important; we are our children's protectors before the Lord and he charges us to raise them to be Godly. Whatever it takes.
We left a church because of an evil influence that their official stand was having on our children. I had to be quite plainspoken with my parents about some things where they refused to respect the Christian lifestyle that we were following with our kids. If I had it to do again, I'd do the same.
At their dedication we promised to give them a guarded Christian upbringing. So, by faith, we prayed, nurtured, disciplined, sheltered, exhorted and kept them in age appropriate Church activities; even when friends and family opposed and hindered us. I thank God that it worked, they are both serving God today and raising their kids the same way.
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I wholeheartedly believe that today's "don't judge" attitude is not properly founded on actual scripture. I fear that it is more of a passivity that doesn't want to do hard things, just like Adam.
(Adam's first sin in the garden was passivity while Eve was being deceived by the devil. Genesis tells us he was right with her through the whole thing and he didn't do anything to defend her and stop the deception.)
The scripture that eveyone Quotes out of context is:
Mat 7:1-2 (NASB) (1) "Do not judge so that you will not be judged. (2) "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you.
Robertson's word pictures tells us about the Greek word translated Judge in this passage:
Mat 7:1 Judge not (me krinete). The habit of censoriousness, sharp, unjust criticism. Our word critic is from this very word. It means to separate, distinguish, discriminate. That is necessary, but pre-judice (prejudgment) is unfair, captious criticism.
I've read several commentaries on this passage, but I think that Peterson's rendering of the verses, in The Message, gives the best commentary on the true meaning of this injunction of our Lord:
Mat 7:1-4 (Message) (1) "Don't pick on people, jump on their failures, criticize their faults--unless, of course, you want the same treatment. (2) That critical spirit has a way of boomeranging. (3) It's easy to see a smudge on your neighbor's face and be oblivious to the ugly sneer on your own. (4) Do you have the nerve to say, 'Let me wash your face for you,' when your own face is distorted by contempt?
Suffice to say that Jesus is focusing on the ugly, critical spirit here. He cannot be forbidding us to point out other people's sins, since he commanded us to do just that when a brother sins against (offends) us.
It isn't correct to interpret one scripture in a way that contradicts the plain sense of other scripture.
------- As human beings we will all be judged by the Word of God, Jesus was quite emphatic on this. If we are comparing actions, that we observed, to the clear sense of the Word of God (the Bible) then we are not judging we are giving warning of the truth that the person will meet at the judgement.
However the manner and spirit of the "confrontation" is key both to preserving good relations and being effective. Since this relative of yours is older, this passage is germaine:
1Ti 5:1-2 (Message) (1) Don't be harsh or impatient with an older man. Talk to him as you would your own father, and to the younger men as your brothers. (2) Reverently honor an older woman as you would your mother, and the younger women as sisters.
The Old King James says "entreat him as a father" for "talk to him as you would your own father".
Robertson's Word Pictures tells us that the word "Elder", in the KJV translation, is correctly translated as it is here, as "older man (or woman)". Paul was not talking about ministers or prescyters as some have asserted:
1Ti 5:1 (RWP) Rebuke not an elder (presbuterōi mē epiplēxēis). Dative case presbuterōi used in the usual sense of an older man, not a minister (bishop as in 1Ti_3:2) as is shown by “as a father.” First aorist (ingressive) active subjunctive with negative mē (prohibition against committing the act) of epiplēssō, to strike upon, old verb, but here only in N.T. and in figurative sense with words rather than with fists. Respect for age is what is here commanded, an item appropriate to the present time.
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Another verse that speaks to the general issue of correcting those who sin is this:
Gal 6:1 (NIrV) (1) Brothers and sisters, what if someone is caught in a sin? Then you who are guided by the Spirit should correct that person. Do it in a gentle way. But be careful. You could be tempted too.
After almost 30 years of ministering in the Church I'm convinced that the temptation, we most need to guard against, is the temptation to assume into a harsh, censorious attitide toward the person who is fallen into sin.
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Paul writes to Timothy specifically about this kind of situation and warns him to guard his own spirit in this scripture:
2Ti 2:24-26 (Message) (24) God's servant must not be argumentative, but a gentle listener and a teacher who keeps cool, (25) working firmly but patiently with those who refuse to obey. You never know how or when God might sober them up with a change of heart and a turning to the truth, (26) enabling them to escape the Devil's trap, where they are caught and held captive, forced to run his errands.
One thing to keep in mind is that someone with a besetting sin is in a captive of the devil on that point, they are in chains. Many times we need to first strike the chains off their soul in the place of intercessory prayer before an admonition will be effective. Prayer will also soften our own heart of love for them so that we will have the right spirit toward them.
===== I think the final word from Jude in his epistle is good counsel for how to deal with those who for one reason or another are out of the way.
Jud 1:20-24 (NASB) (20) But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, (21) keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life. (22) And have mercy on some, who are doubting; (23) save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh. (24) Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,
Summarizing: First submerge your own spirit in the Holy Spirit, then reach out with redemption to to any you see who has fallen into sin; and look to Jesus to keep you safe and blameless in it all.
I hope this helps my sister.
SGD
dave
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Post by morganlbusse on Apr 26, 2010 7:33:27 GMT -5
Dear Becky, I know what you are going through. I had a senior member in my family who raised me by what the Bible said turn away from the Bible and choose to live her life the way she wanted. When I first stumbled upon her sin, I confess I reacted wrongly. I was shocked and had no idea what to do (when its family, there are more emotions involved it seems). Then I began praying and over a couple months, talked to her about what she was choosing. But in the end, she wanted what she wanted and not what God said in his Word. Things were more complicated due to my children being in the mix. In the end, my husband and I felt we could not trust her with our children both because of what was going on in her life and the mixed message she would be sending about you can be a Christian and not obey the Bible. My heart grieves for this person; how utterly she is deceived by her sin. And her sin has had rippling effects on everyone around her Hebrews 3:12-13 "Be careful then, dear brothers and sisters. Make sure that your own hearts are not evil and unbelieving, turning you away from the living God. You must warn each other every day, while it is still "today", so that none of you will be deceived by sin and hardened against God." We must watch our own hearts and in turn, watch the hearts of others. We are battling against the world, satan, and our own sin nature and need to help each other in this battle.
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Post by beckyminor on Apr 26, 2010 21:02:01 GMT -5
Dave--what a blessing to have all of that biblical wisdom compiled in one space for me! Thank you so much for taking the time to show me so many excellent passages to consider as I pray through this situation. And Morwena--so sorry to hear you have been down this road as well, though it seems far to many of us have. Thank you for sharing your experience to show me that sometimes we can't "win" in these situations on all fronts, but that standing firm is always the right choice. Blessings to all for your contributions to my deliberations.
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Post by veryblessedmom on Apr 26, 2010 21:16:34 GMT -5
In all things, we as Christians need to look at the motives of our heart and not just the letter of the law. Not that the law is not true and right, but it must always be tempered with love.
In the past, I beat people over the head with the Bible and scripture with impure motives. (Not saying this is what you are doing. This is what I did.) I was not speaking truth in love. I was not trying to direct the person from danger as much as trying to prove to them that I was right and they were wrong.
Jesus always called sin--sin. But he didn't chase people down and stay on them about it. He told them it was sin and they needed to stop. He left it to them to listen and obey. The only people he lectured were the religous people who were big on law and short on love. Again, one does not cancel out the other, but the law means nothing to a hurting heart when delivered apart from love.
Once you have spoken truth, pray and love that person. You might be the only godly influence in their life. Don't volunteer advice, but if asked say, "God cannot bless that. I can only advise you to do xyz, based on what God's word says about this." But don't harp on it. Don't make them want to run when they see you. You are not their mom, they are not your child. You cannot force it on them.
If their sin is something your kids know about tell your kids, "We love ________ they are family but they are living apart from God. All we can do is pray for them to turn from their sin and speak truth when God directs and opens a door."
You can be used by the Holy Spirit, but you cannot do the Holy Spirit's job. If you say it, say it, and say it, that's nagging. If you pray and the Holy Spirit says it--says it--says it, that's conviction. If God directs you to speak, obey. If you just need to prove your point, be silent.
God's word is true. You do not have to prove it. It proves itself. With that off your shoulder, you can look at the issue. You love this person and want them in a right relationship with Christ. Let that be your motivation and your prayer.
That's just based on my experience.
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Post by Spokane Flyboy on Apr 26, 2010 23:46:31 GMT -5
In all things, we as Christians need to look at the motives of our heart and not just the letter of the law. Not that the law is not true and right, but it must always be tempered with love. In the past, I beat people over the head with the Bible and scripture with impure motives. (Not saying this is what you are doing. This is what I did.) I was not speaking truth in love. I was not trying to direct the person from danger as much as trying to prove to them that I was right and they were wrong. This reminds me of Through the Maze Ministry's motto: "Truth without love is too hard. Love without truth is too soft."
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