out of the box

[Khiya]

So ever since I read LOTR I decided to write my own fantasy story, and I've been diving into all sorts of other fantasy stories to see what ideas other people have come up with. I realized that no matter how many interesting twists or turns or cool ideas people have, they're mostly variations of common themes and ideas that run all the way through fantasy. It takes a lot to come up with a completely innovative idea, so it's always a treat to find a high fantasy story that isn't reminiscent of all the others.
Thus began my crusade to come up with not only new ideas, but new categories of possibility. I want to try to imagine the things that have never been imagined before. I just know that God's got possibilities out there that haven't been tapped yet, and ways of thinking that we haven't even considered. What frustrates me most is that there are that I can't imagine because they are beyond the capabilities of my imagination, and they would be so much fun to write about.
Anyway, I wanted to share some of the ideas i've come up with, and to see if anyone else has the faintest idea of what i'm talking about (I know I can abstract myself into a knot sometimes).
Tolkein changed categories of fantasy from the fairy tale kind (like George MacDonald) to the epic adventure kind, and now I'm excited to find out what other kinds are out there.
I REALLY want to see what other people have discovered. Here are some of my own thoughts.

Don't have main characters as people or even physical beings. How about a story about how an idea spreads or grows?

(I know this is just a variation, but...) Rearrange the continents on a planet. What if some are only in the southern hemisphere, or the only land is made of islands a mile across, or the land is all underwater with just huge trees sticking out into the air, like one big bayou.

What if you write a story about a person on an adventure, but tell it from the POV of all the characters they meet along the way. and never once from the main character's POV (I'm thinking about trying this out somehow. It will be interesting to not only make the characters different and individual, but to differ in the way they percieve the main character (not what they notice about him, but how they understand life differently, and therefore approach him differently).

Anyway, I realize this probably isn't as new and different as I thought it might be, and I KNOW I haven't read enough books to form an all-inclusive opinion like this, but it is a pattern I have noticed in High Fantasy series.

[The Blue Collared Philosopher]

Some great ideas! And i might add-don't get rid of them, because, even if you don't use any of those ideas now, i have learned that you can use them later in a story or work off of them.

I have several ideas, but it is hard for me to tell them because i have a whole world of my own, that i am writting about, but one idea is a world under water and i mean completely under water! No land what-so-ever! And maybe even a land where there is no water! Now that would be something! Especially since almost everything story i have read has water.

So i have so many ideas, but what if there were no liquids and only gases? So you had to some how "drink" steam instead of water!

Just a few ideas! Tell me if you have more.

[Christian Soldier]

I like the bit about telling a story from a stangers perspective. I keep trying to think if I've ever read that before, but I have not. Develope your ideas ad bring them into fruition. I recommend trying it out in a short story first and see how it goes.

[Jeff Gerke]

Great ideas, Khiya. I love the pure creativity you're bringing to your thinking. Keep striving for the unique and unexplored. That's the heart of WhereTheMapEnds.

Your idea to tell an adventure through the eyes of those other than the person whose adventure it is sounds, actually, like the Gospels. I mean, we rarely really know what Jesus is thinking or planning or fearing. Aside from some moments when no one is with Him (like being tempted in the wilderness or praying alone in the Garden--and how did we get that info if no observer was there?), we have almost everything in His life from the POV (point of view) of observers. I even have a theory that Luke went to Judea and interviewed Mary and the disciples and everyone else to research his Gospel.

The fun of a story like that is that the person whose adventure it is remains somewhat inscrutable or mysterious to those of us observing. The narrators interpret what they see through their own lenses and expectations and preconceptions--but some or all of what they interpret may be completely wrong.

Or maybe the observers are being intentionally misleading! Maybe they have their own agendas and it's in their own best interest to spin things so that the reader gets a different impression. It would be cool to try to tell a story like that, with a mix of trustworthy and untrustworthy viewpoint characters. The reader is not only seeing what the hero character is doing but is coming to know the fears and inclinations of the various characters who are observing and retelling the tale.

Cool stuff.

Jeff

[Khiya]

One other idea I've been turning over in my mind is telling a clear, good vs evil tale, but telling it from the evil POV, so the evil side seems good and the good side seems bad. Then, at the end the "good" (really evil) side wins, but it's clear that they really weren't the good side after all.
Yeah, that could be really depressing, but the point would be to analyze subjective good and evil, and confront the whole idea of how the characters are written that makes them seem good or evil to the reader.

[The Blue Collared Philosopher]

that would be awesome! Sure, i might be depressing, but often we find out how the good guys feel about a situation and not the bad guys. But that would be a cool, and unique story!

[mongoose]

I suspect it would actually give a much more realistic picture of reality, seeing as how no one really is either good or evil. Most people believe what they're doing is right, and then maybe they go wrong somewhere. Things like, the ends justify the means. yeah, we've got a lot of rules here, but they're necessary to keep chaos at bay. We're in a crisis mode, and if we don't keep things in this militant structure, we'll be wiped out.

The challenge is not to make the people thinking this way look stupid, deluded, power hungry, or blind to reality. they really do have the best interests of the other characters at heart, and do truly believe that what they're doing is in the interests of those characters.

I can't be sure, because I couldn't follow the plot, but I think something like this was done with the "Dune" or the "Children of Dune" mini-series. the guy who saved the indigenous people of the desert planet from the oppresive invasion by the rival family, ended up turning into a tyranical dictator. He became the bad guy, and didn't even know it. Of course, members of the rival family, the original bad guys, had to mitigate his power, or even take him out of power. Were they, then, the good guys? What were their real motives? And then his son came along and gave everyone else the smack down, but was he any better than his father? than his enemies?

Cool idea, and one I think is very worth exploring. that and who of the bad guys can be redeemed.

[Khiya]

I'm sure you're all familiar with the theme of refining gold as a metaphor for God purifying our hearts. I heard something interesting about that a while ago. Someone told me that they talked to a goldsmith about the purification process and asked how he knew when the gold was really pure.

"When I can see my reflection in it," the goldsmith replied.

Isn't that so wonderfully poignant? I keep discovering more things about how Scripture connects with life in more and more ways, and I keep thinking 'Wow, God is so smart!'
Anyway, I think I want to include a subtle refining-gold theme in a short story some time without ever actually referring to it directly. It could be a lot of fun.

[mongoose]

speaking of seeing your reflection in your work (or God seeing His in us), part of a speech I'll be giving soon is similar to that.

The speech is about how I am and will be a hero. Here's what a portion of it will be like, I suspect:

I appreciate how the new superhero movies take it back to the begining. They show how the heroes were made or developed. Bat Man Begins, the Mask of Zorro, Spider Man 1, Smallville. Bruce Wayne had skills, but had to train under the ninjas before he could become Batman. Whatsisname had will and passion, but had to train under the previous Zorro to become the new Zorro. Spider Man had powers, but had to listen to His uncle to make good use of them. Superman had powers, but had to learn from the spirit of His father in the fortress of solitude, and had to choose between helping on the farm and saving the world.

Likewise, if we are to be heroes, there's some things we must do. What I've been learning in the last few weeks is the imperative to sit at the feet of the Master; listen to Him; learn from Him. As I spend time with THE Hero who is, and learn from other heroes who have gone before, I will be shaped and fashioned into their heroic image; I will become a hero in my own right (for His glory and the blessing of those I'll rescue.)

Okay, that first part listing the heroes and their movies was long. I'll have to cut it down to a couple examples. *shrugs* Point remains, as the goldsmith refines gold until he can see his reflection in it, I must let the ultimate Hero train me until I reflect and look like Him to others around me.

[Khiya]

You're completely right.
Learning from the masters/experts/teachers is almost the story of a good society, an essential part of life. It also explains the decline of our society; what with post-modernism and secularism and be-who-you-want-to-be-ism, society is sending its 'apprentices', i.e. most young people, mixed up, confused messages about what life should be and what morals are good, and then is surprised that they turn out so mixed up and immoral.
Even as a Christian it's hard not to be taken in by modern cultural messages, even when you know that they're blatently wrong. We need to gain a firm foundation based on God to stand up in this world.
Good luck on your speech.

(See, even that reflects modern culture. Luck has nothing to do with it)
May God guide you in your speech, instead.

[Christian Soldier]

Yes, may God guide you! Oh, and you're both right!

[Divides the Waters]

"He's right, and he's right ... they can't both be right!"
"You know, you are also right."
(Fiddler on the Roof)

Allow me to play devil's advocate here (is that a good idea on a Christian forum?), and say that I think that it is a little trendy to do the "bad guy really a good guy/good guy really a bad guy" thing. I just started a thread on the Dark Horse boards on this (I'm Mira Lodo over there, if anyone frequents there), because I've noticed a trend towards moral ambiguity in today's spec fic. I'm all for complex characters, and characters that evolve, etc. But I am getting a little tired of people in real life and in fiction who can't seem to call evil for what it is. Part of my Christian worldview is that there is a right and a wrong, and it galls me somewhat to see that there are so few now willing to take a stand on the issue. That doesn't mean that stories can't be told in which the character may be a villain to some and a hero to others, but in the end, whether someone is wholly good or wholly evil is irrelevant; it's whether someone is wholly saved or wholly unsaved (or, in novel terms, "redeemable").

To me, the best stories are about redemption and triumph over evil. That doesn't mean that there can't be depth in others (hey, most Star Wars fans still consider TESB the best of the series), but fantasy is about illustrating spiritual truths in a way that no other genre can do. (Karen Hancock has an awesome "defense" of Christian fantasy on her website.) We've read the end of the book; the good guys win (and no doubt seem like the villains to the losers). But there's a tremendous battle that must take place before they do. Usually, that is inherently enough drama without having my readers have to ask who the hero is. Think about all the best stories you've read; don't most of them end with some form of redemption? It doesn't always have to be as obvious as Darth Vader returning to the Light Side of the Force; it can be as subtle as building a Bridge to Terebithia, or as concrete as Edmund apologizing for being an ass. It can be any number of things, including (but not limited to) simple personal growth, even if all external battles are lost.

[Khiya]

Hah, you're right too!

Let me clarify my thoughts a little:
The point of my villain-as-the-superficial-protagonist would be twofold. First, to give the reader a picture of the horrifying spiritual destruction that overwhelms people when they are not saved. I want to show that everything that is rebellion against God will always lead to disaster, no matter how innocent or glamourous or appealing it seems. I guess this would be taking a truth from the Bible and wrapping it up in a story that I hope will appeal to both Christians and unbelievers.

The second part is not nearly as noble: I want to see if I can pull off a story about a character who makes bad decisions without the badness of those decisions being immediately evident to the reader (Billy knew the rule was just two cookies a day, but he really wanted another, and -whoops! - now he had dropped one, so he might as well eat it. After all, no one would know......gag). I've read a lot of books where the author makes it painfully clear that the character's making a bad decision, so I want to see if I can just show the decision, show the result, and let the reader draw the conclusion.

This is so much a WIP that if it progressed any less it would be erasing itself. The main problem is that I have no idea what it would look like, but I do know it would require a delicacy that I have yet to learn.

I'd love to know what y'all think about it.

[Divides the Waters]

Nifty, and a fascinating concept... kind of a Screwtape Letters from the human's point of view.

Looking back at my post, I have just one question:

Who is Karen Hanthingy?

(Must be some sort of parental control gone berserk....)

[renblack]

Hmm, Khiya,

The more you talk of your villain pov the more you remind me of what I started but had to shelve temporarily. It's the backstory of my series. I thought to publish it first, but ran into some serious issues. I have a question for you, what if Star Wars had come out in chronological order the first time? What would happen when you reached the end of movie III, where the formerly cute little boy we loved and cheered for is now cold-bloodedly slaughtering other kids? What if you didn't know the rest of the story - how it all ends, particularly that last minute redemption or death-bed repentance? Would you actually watch any more? Would it be worth reading another book by this author? Or would you feel too betrayed by the author getting you to love this person "doomed to evil". Yes, I know it's the character who chooses it, but people's reactions are not logical or rational. Yes, I can do it, WAS doing it, but as I watched my readers... watched them love my "hero", cheering for him, seeing his pains and tradgeties. I watched them share in the sorrow of my "hero" whenever fate seemed to pull his girlfriend away. They WANT the hero to get together with the girl. They so deperately want it to work out. One reader really tore at me. I think he had gone through a divorce and he empathized with my hero's pain so much ... too much, it hurt me to think what might happen when he kept reading - IF he kept reading.

Those that knew the end were fine, but those who got sucked into it... well, one of them found out - I wanted her opinion about it, so I told her. She was horrified and agreed that it was actually mean to the reader. Some might be fine but I think most would not. Because you can't just go half way - not if they are the star villain. Their destruction must be self-induced and undisputably justify - otherwise you reflect the biased cruelty that some accuse God of in the Bible. All those arguments over things like pre-destination and the Jews slaughtering the Canaanites, man, woman and child. It's gotta be all or nothing.

So, in the end, for me, I shelved the book. I might still try to pull it off later, but I'm not putting that out as my first book. I want my readers to trust me - trust that I have a reason and that things will work out. I don't want them to hate me because the first story they read from me is so tragic. So, like God, I want them to witness my mercy and justice - to trust me to be kind to my characters (atleast in the end). I want them to trust that any book I write is worth reading to the end. If I'm an unknown, I decided pulling a stunt like that would be too risky before my readers have learned to trust. I don't believe God is all about "hell, fire and brimstone" so I certainly don't want to make Him seem so and drive away more people. I believe that is why God tries hard to focus on His love first.