New and Confused

[brianc]

Hi, I'm Brian. I'm new here and I hope I can gain some helpful insight from the critical eyes of others. This is my first writers-forum experience.

Sadly, I didn't realize until late last year, at the age of 32, that I love creating stories and writing. I never imagined it could be so much fun! I've always come up with intriguing ideas for stories, but I usually said, "Someone should write a book about..." or "Someone should make a movie about...", but that "someone" was never me. Now, I'm finding great joy in being the someone to write the stories.

I'm currently writing a trilogy about which I could use some advice. The First 50 Pages directed me here, by the way. My goal is to write secular books with an underlying thread of Christianity but without the Christianese language which can often turn off Atheist readers (I mask the language instead). I want to pull the reader into the storyline so that they're far too invested by the time the real important life questions start being presented. I'm sure some will just read over them as fiction, but my hope is that others will really consider what's being said and done in the book and apply it to their own lives. My philosophy is "Why write to the Christians when most of them are already saved? Let's write to the non-Christians." That's a very tricky thing to do, which is why I'm here.

One fear I have is that I will post here, associating myself with Christian writers, then, my books will be deemed Christian novels rather than mainstream. Even if a non-Christian publishing company decided to publish the book, I'm afraid it'll get the Christian label an my target audience won't care to read it. Therefore, at the moment, till I figure out how to play this, please be patient with my vagueness.

My target audience, by the way, is teens and young adults, but that's not to say others wouldn't care for the books, as well.

Any help is appreciated, though I think I may have posted this information in the wrong forum here.

- Brian

[Kessie]

Hihi!

Ahhh, you're writing stealth-Christianity! I love sniffing out stealth-Christian authors (like Grisham or Jim Butcher).

So, what sorts of things do you need advice on? We have a critique group called the Sandbox: groups.yahoo.com/group/AnomSandbox/

It's a place to crit and be critiqued, if you're not comfortable sharing ideas in an open forum. :-)

[brianc]

Thanks for the offer, Kessie! I think I'll try the Sandbox.

I wasn't aware that Grisham was a stealth-Christian, though I've never read any of his books. That being the case, I can't say whether I'm that type of stealth-Christian writer or not, and I'm sure he's a lot better at it than I am.

The way I mask Christianity in the book is by completely removing it from existence and replacing it with a different religion using different terms but the same template. The book takes place in the real world, but it's like Christianity is absent and this other religion exists in its place. However, it's barely even spoken of till probably around pages 450-500. I'm only on page 300 right now. Anyway, I need to know if this will even work, so I need impressions on that aspect of the storyline, as well as other aspects like pacing and hooks, etc. My wife is a PhD and the designated copy editor at the research center where she works, but she's so busy that it takes her a while to get to my stuff and edit it. I'd like diverse opinions and criticisms, as well as advice on certain aspects of the structure of the story.
The story is a love story, primarily, and it is sci-fi since some people have superhuman abilities. I tried to keep a certain set of the abilities explainable by science so it has some sort of realism to it. What I can't tell is if the love story takes too long before getting to the conflict. I don't want to post too much about it here, so, again, sorry about the vagueness. I'll post more details at the Sandbox.

Thanks so much!
- Brian

[brianc]

By the way, love your quote Kessie: "The cake is a lie." That was an awesome game.

[beckyminor]

Welcome, Brian!

I'm glad you found us, and I'm also glad to hear there are more Christians out there who want to write in the general market. While the people we deal with here in Christian publishing are for the most part a blessing to work with, I think the secular publishing world needs more voices in it that aren't ashamed of their faith. While Christian publishing is a safe and comfortable place for the romance or chick-lit writer to live long term, I'm not entirely certain Christian publishing offers the same climate to the spec fic writer. We have our havens, but they are small and won't be able to hold all of us who want to be published, I'm fairly certain.

As for posting your work here and earning a lable, I wouldn't worry about that. I sincerely doubt publisher are going to look at where you hung around in order get feedback while you wrote. They will, however, look at your writing. So you are wise to get as much input as you can on your craft, to study hard and apply good technique, and to persevere through the querying process.

What you do want to be careful of, however, is how much you post in publicly searchable forums. Not many, but the rare few presses out there get persnickety about where your work has been seen a large portions. That's why the Sandbox is great, since you can work in a forum scenario without worrying about too much public exposure.

With the way publishers are now keeping an eye on self published books that are showing success and picking them up for contracts, its becoming clear that the presence of a book in other places is becoming less of an issue with each passing year.

Anyway, it sounds like you are well under way--you've got your story brewing, you know your audience, and so long as you are careful to avoid the old "bait and switch" (secular-seeming novel that turns preachy toward the end) you sound like you could tackle this publishing world well.

Blessing on your endeavors, and again, welcome!

[brianc]

Thanks so much for your input, Becky.

I know what you mean about books being preachy or doing a bait and switch. What I've done is set the story in the real world, but removed Christianity from the real world and replaced it with a religion just like it. That way, I can use different, but understandable, terms with which people can identify easily, without turning off Atheists. Instead of teaching "churchy" traditional religious things, I chose to have some characters teach relationship with the Creator as the source of supernatural power.

Since the Creator needs us to suffer in life to humble us and teach us to trust in Him to overcome our sins, I decided to make it so that the characters are not who control their powers, but rather, the Creator has to move them to use the powers. If they try on their own, the powers don't work and they usually end up getting themselves into big trouble. That way, no one ever thinks a scenario is easily taken care of by the Creator. The characters instead have to go through very tough things before they pull through them. Paul was persecuted quite heavily even though he was doing God's work.

Evil can produce powers too, even if the character is not one of the evil characters in the book. In the first 350 or so pages, I've established that the characters think they have their powers figured out. But I'll drop a bomb on one of the main characters later when the real dynamics of the powers are explained. That throws everything out of wack and will cause issues later in the story for many people who don't believe in a Creator.

Originally, I was going to footnote the story to show when an actual fact is used. There's a heavy theme of creation in the book that no one realizes is there for quite a while. I'll give some key facts about that. I'm not going to footnote it now, though, because that'll turn off my main audience. I may put a note from the author at the end about such things, maybe...but I'm not decided on that yet. A strong love story theme means a lot of teen girl readers who won't care for footnoted stories and it could take them out of the action and escape that fiction provides. I'll just have to see where it goes and what kind of feedback I get.

The main thing I've been doing is trying to get feedback from readers. I guess I should have come to writers groups/forums earlier. They're very helpful for feedback. I've gone to the Sandbox now and joined. They seem very helpful. I think that'll work well for posting material.

Thanks again, Becky!

[This Baron of Mora]

If your talking stealth-christianity authors/books I think the ultimate example is Tolkien. After all if you look on amazon the market is full of books discussing the Christianity of his various books and still regular people read his books and enjoy them. He never gets "preachy" or to allegorical. Just look at the first chapter or two of the Silmarrillion especially. There God actually creates the world in the beginning and an "angel" rises up against him (Morgoth).

In the Children of Hurin before Nirnaeth Arnoediad, the Battle of Unnumbered Tears, the High King of Eldar (elves) cry out in his own tongue, "The day has come! Behold, people of the Eldar and Fathers of Men, the day has come!" and all the hosts present respond, "The night is passing!" which means they believe they can finally destroy the darkness, Morgoth, that binds the world in evil. Later in their defeat Turin cries out "Day shall come again!" each time he fells an enemy.

That's my favorite "stealth-christianity"
Good luck to you!

[brianc]

Apr 20, 2012 18:16:22 GMT -5 This Baron of Mora said:

If your talking stealth-christianity authors/books I think the ultimate example is Tolkien.

Tolkien and Robert Jordan are the authors from which I got the idea, initially. I think they both did an excellent job of it, even if I don't agree with Jordan's religious structuring in the book. The writing is excellent and the stealth-Christianity is amazing in both of them. Lord of the Rings is an awesome trilogy, and The Wheel of Time series is excellent, as well.

Thanks!

[Bainespal]

Apr 20, 2012 9:13:26 GMT -5 brianc said:

My philosophy is "Why write to the Christians when most of them are already saved? Let's write to the non-Christians."

I think this the hottest topic in the Christian speculative fiction community right now, based on discussions I've seen. Several columns on the blog Speculative Faith (link), such as this article, have been discussing it. There are, of course, varying opinions.

Tolkien and Robert Jordan are the authors from which I got the idea, initially. I think they both did an excellent job of it, even if I don't agree with Jordan's religious structuring in the book. The writing is excellent and the stealth-Christianity is amazing in both of them.

It's good to see another Wheel of Time fan on the forum. You may be the fist person I have ever known to imply that Robert Jordan's series may be Christian fantasy.

The Wheel of Time definitely makes strong and profound use of mythopoeia, which was Tolkien's concept of using myth to reflect truth, as "sub-creators" reflecting the Creator. Both Tolkien and Jordan mixed Judeo-Christian mythology/theology with non-Christian mythologies in their mythopoeia and worldbuilding. (I differentiate between "mythopoeia" and "worldbuilding" by considering worldbuilding to be the lower level, concerned with the details of the imaginary world rather than the profound myths and spiritual realities.) Tolkien used pagan elements; his world is basically a polytheistic monotheism. Jordan used Eastern mysticism, perhaps Zoroastrianism and Hinduism, alongside a Christian-like (I think) sense of destiny.

I'm curious, though. When you say that you "don't agree" with Jordan's "religious structuring," do you mean that you don't like the way he incorporated religious elements into The Wheel of Time, or are you simply stating that you don't actually believe the Hindu/Zoroastrian-like stuff in real life?

(You'll notice that hyperlinks in message text don't show up vary well, but I have two of them up there for you! )

[Kessie]

As I've been dabbling in the Dresden books, I've been delighted with the way he presents Christianity (cloaked safely in Catholicism, which slips past everybody's radar). God and Jesus are Up There, and the vampires and faeries don't like them much, much less any of God's Chosen Knights. Also a couple of archangels who help out Dresden from time to time.

I still think the most hilarious scene is when one of the Knights of the Cross claims to be an atheist, and Dresden (himself a skeptic) explains why a person can't be a Knight whose power comes from God Himself, and still not believe in Him. He winds up turning to another of the Knights in exasperation, who simply states, "The Lord sees the heart."

[pixydust]

Welcome, Brian, C! Good luck with the recon mission!

[brianc]

Apr 20, 2012 19:14:24 GMT -5 Bainespal said:

It's good to see another Wheel of Time fan on the forum. You may be the fist person I have ever known to imply that Robert Jordan's series may be Christian fantasy.

I'm curious, though. When you say that you "don't agree" with Jordan's "religious structuring," do you mean that you don't like the way he incorporated religious elements into The Wheel of Time, or are you simply stating that you don't actually believe the Hindu/Zoroastrian-like stuff in real life?

Oh, I simply meant to say that I like Jordan's worldbuilding and religious structure in the books, but I don't agree with it in real life.

Jordan was a Mason, though he would not speak of it except to say that he was one. Masons are known for accepting practically all religions into their ranks as long as the religion believes in a god. Jordan said he was high church episcopalian, first and foremost. However, if he were anything more than that, he didn't say. Masons are all about "hidden knowledge" that only they know. You can see Masonry present in some of the cultures in his books, like the Asadae and their process of being inducted into full sisterhood, as well as the Ogier stone masons. The Wheel itself is straight out of Hinduism, which is also where the Nazi swastika comes from, oddly enough. Hitler was big into mystical religion and religious objects. He ever tried to get the Spear of Destiny, actually believing that it would allow him to rule the world. Oh, the joys of Paganism which came to Catholicism and carried through to the 20th Century were wonderful, weren't they?

Tolkien claimed that he was not trying to make a religious statement with his books, but there was quite a bit of religion in them, as you pointed out. Really, there has to be since a world must be built and religion is always a part of a world (or the absence of, which is also a religion).

I think I got my sentence flow primarily from Jordan, though he's a lot better at it than I am. I don't do it purposely. I listened to all 14 Wheel of Time books while driving on business deliveries around the US, so it kind of shaped my brain a little in how to form sentences for books, I think. Jordan's a prodigy, though, as I'm sure you know from the About the Author in the back of his books. Who teaches one self to read at age 4 with a little help from a 12 yr old brother, then is reading Jules Vern and Dickens by age 5?? Impressive. If I can be even a quarter as good a writer as Jordan, I'll be pleased.

Thanks for the links, by the way. I read over some of the articles. Interesting stuff. And, as you said, varying opinions, which is to be expected, I suppose.

[brianc]

Apr 20, 2012 20:55:33 GMT -5 Kessie said:

As I've been dabbling in the Dresden books, I've been delighted with the way he presents Christianity (cloaked safely in Catholicism, which slips past everybody's radar). God and Jesus are Up There, and the vampires and faeries don't like them much, much less any of God's Chosen Knights. Also a couple of archangels who help out Dresden from time to time.

I still think the most hilarious scene is when one of the Knights of the Cross claims to be an atheist, and Dresden (himself a skeptic) explains why a person can't be a Knight whose power comes from God Himself, and still not believe in Him. He winds up turning to another of the Knights in exasperation, who simply states, "The Lord sees the heart."

Nice. I loved the TV show The Dresden Files, but that's one of those shows that was cancelled far too quickly strictly because of a bad time-slot. What a shame. When my wife and I finish The Hunger Games, we'll have to start the Dresden series. I hear it's excellent and we both like that genre.

[brianc]

Apr 21, 2012 0:39:18 GMT -5 pixydust said:

Welcome, Brian, C! Good luck with the recon mission!

Thanks! I like the little vids on your profile, especially the one from Supernatural. I just posted it up on my Facebook as the way I feel when I see myself in the mirror each morning, and how everyone probably feels when they see me each day. lol

[brianc]

It's interesting--I've noticed art sections in the two writing forums to which I've been, but I didn't typically relate artwork with writers. Which is a bit odd since I grew up drawing comic books and winning a lot of art contests. Now that I write, I just didn't know there was a connection, but I'm seeing it now. I thought I was a little strange since I drew and wrote. I guess I just never assumed many writers might also know how to create artwork--just never came to mind. Good to see that it's prevalent, though. Art is a lot of fun, and it is one more way we can be like the Creator by creating things of beauty, just like He did (well, not JUST like He did, but as close as we're going to come to it).