Free Will or No Choice?

[Bethany J.]

I would simply posit here that I don't think God's creating us necessarily makes us His children. His creations, certainly. But the fact that He formed us in His image doesn't mean he "fathered" us. I create characters for my novels. But I don't consider myself their mother. (Of course, my characters are fictional because I'm not God and I can't create real beings the way He can! It's not a perfect analogy, naturally.)

In short, I don't consider my response inaccurate for my belief system, so I don't know how you can judge that for me. *shrug* But as I said, I do think we've reached "rock bottom" here, and I don't want to nit-pick back and forth, so I will let the discussion rest for now. Thanks for discussing with me!

God bless,
Bethany

[This Baron of Mora]

I think this discussion is lacking something so I will add it,

So, it's simple: God knows the future because He knows our hearts. He manipulates events and persuades the hearts of men in different ways, knowing their choices ahead of time, and therefore knows who will accept Him and who will not. So, ahead of time, He chooses His followers, then at just the right time, He calls them and they accept.

God does know the future (He is the future). But not (at least directly) because he knows our hearts. This comes to an interesting thing I recently learned from C. S. Lewis (well actually I had never even thought of it before), God is not in time. Creation started forth time, and since God is not in time that is why he knows everyone, everything, for Him it doesn't need to happen (and doesn't really) in many ways everything in time happened for Him. The very things I am saying now were part of the “original creation” (and before, but before puts it in time which it is not).

In fact in some ways there is predestination (though not in the since that Brian described) since every part of history was made at that moment. Everyone has free choice but their decision was already made before they were born, God is not in time, as such he knows all time, is all time. Parts of the Bible call him "The Ancient of Days" I always loved that name, in fact just thinking about that name amazes and confuses me (What does it mean?) but I will not give my feeble explanation, it is beyond me, and as Jack (Lewis) says "the mere fact of putting something in words of itself involve an exaggeration."

I will say I am with George MacDonald who when he first heard of predestination wept, though assured he was to go to Heaven (though I was never a Calvinist nor did I weep).

I will now reemphasize, everyone has free will but their choice was made before them, outside of time.

[This Baron of Mora]

Another thing, something I found called "Single Predestination. "

This belief is both officially and unofficially held by most Christian denominations, and says something similar to "free will" in that no one is predestined to hell, but those that believe (all true Christians) are predestined to Heaven. All back this up from some quotes from an extensively researched Wikipedia article on Predestination (I assure its accuracy):

"The Catholic Catechism says:
"God predestines no one to go to hell""

"Lutherans believe that the elect are predestined to salvation. Lutherans believe Christians should be assured that they are among the predestined. "
"you didn't choose God, God chose you in Christ!"

[brianc]

Jun 23, 2012 12:15:08 GMT -5 Bethany J. said:

I would simply posit here that I don't think God's creating us necessarily makes us His children. His creations, certainly. But the fact that He formed us in His image doesn't mean he "fathered" us. I create characters for my novels. But I don't consider myself their mother. (Of course, my characters are fictional because I'm not God and I can't create real beings the way He can! It's not a perfect analogy, naturally.)

In short, I don't consider my response inaccurate for my belief system, so I don't know how you can judge that for me. *shrug* But as I said, I do think we've reached "rock bottom" here, and I don't want to nit-pick back and forth, so I will let the discussion rest for now. Thanks for discussing with me!

God bless,
Bethany

God created angels and calls them sons of God in the Old Testament. God created Adam and called Him a son of God.

"the son of Enosh, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God" (Luke 3:38).

So, if God created Adam, and Adam is called His son, then Adam is a child of God. I post these threads in hopes that it will cause people to do some research and learn or test their beliefs better so they know how to defend them properly. The Bible says to always have an answer as to why we believe. That's important. I do what I do to educate Christians, because so many don't know why they believe what they believe, or they can't defend it biblically.

If Adam is God's son, and all humans are Adam's sons and daughters, then all humans are God's sons and daughters, physically speaking. And that's the simple truth. That's why my scenario works.

No Calvinist has answered the scenario yet. I still await an answer to the scenario from a Calvinist who can show how it's loving to send people to hell against their will and how it glorifies God, but none will, because it's not possible. Plain and simple.

Thanks for the discussion! Have a great day!

- Brian

[brianc]

Jun 23, 2012 13:46:09 GMT -5 This Baron of Mora said:

I think this discussion is lacking something so I will add it,

So, it's simple: God knows the future because He knows our hearts. He manipulates events and persuades the hearts of men in different ways, knowing their choices ahead of time, and therefore knows who will accept Him and who will not. So, ahead of time, He chooses His followers, then at just the right time, He calls them and they accept.

God does know the future (He is the future). But not (at least directly) because he knows our hearts. This comes to an interesting thing I recently learned from C. S. Lewis (well actually I had never even thought of it before), God is not in time. Creation started forth time, and since God is not in time that is why he knows everyone, everything, for Him it doesn't need to happen (and doesn't really) in many ways everything in time happened for Him. The very things I am saying now were part of the “original creation” (and before, but before puts it in time which it is not).

This complicates the matter and is not provable, actually. While God can be in eternity while we are in "time", Jesus says He will always be with us. That implies He will be "in time" with us. Therefore, He is just as subject to time right now as we are. Whether He exists outside of time or not doesn't matter. He is still required to interact with us and be with us in "time", and therefore, He is part of "time". To say anything other than that would be muddying and complicating the matter unnecessarily, and likely incorrect. I would say C.S. Lewis, if he understood things the way you're explaining them, was incorrect on this point. Smart man, to be sure, but I have yet to read anyone who is 100% correct in all their beliefs and perceptions of God and spirituality.

In fact in some ways there is predestination (though not in the since that Brian described) since every part of history was made at that moment. Everyone has free choice but their decision was already made before they were born, God is not in time, as such he knows all time, is all time. Parts of the Bible call him "The Ancient of Days" I always loved that name, in fact just thinking about that name amazes and confuses me (What does it mean?) but I will not give my feeble explanation, it is beyond me, and as Jack (Lewis) says "the mere fact of putting something in words of itself involve an exaggeration."

It seems you rely far too much on the wisdom of men, not trusting that God can directly bestow answers upon you. Thing are not nearly as complicated as you're trying to make them. God is very simplistic in nature, and yet complex at the same time. God is simple, because He is Love and He is Good. That's all one needs to know about Him to understand Him. That says it all. And yet He is infinitely complex, an aspect of Him we need not understand. It is very important to take our beliefs and reduce them down to their most simple form if we are to understand them properly. The attempt to complicate things is where beliefs get muddied and confusing and incomprehensible. I understand all of my beliefs on a basic level, very simply--even the one about which we speak right now. God is incredibly logical and has taught me the simplistic nature of belief. I didn't learn it from any man. I learned it from Him, trusting Him to teach it to me. Am I right about everything? I should hope not. I'm no better or smarter than anyone else, nor am I so close to God that He would share every mystery with me, nor am I so important He needs to do so. But I am confident that several of my beliefs are correct--and none of them are complicated. They're all very simple.

One of mankind's follies is complicating simple matters and simple truths. This is one reason I do not read about the church fathers or about many well-known Christians from the past. If God can teach them truth directly, He can do the same for me. I am to learn from God, not from man. That is a lesson it took God years to teach me. Often, today, mankind seeks knowledge from pastors and church fathers, because their curiosity can be instantly gratified that way. But to trust God to teach a person something could take days, months, years or even decades. And sometimes, God never answers a question, because it's something we don't need to know. It may seem less immediately gratifying, but it's far more fulfilling. I stopped learning from mankind a long time ago and started seeking God directly through relationship. I've learned a lot more, far more quickly due to this approach. It's amazing what God can teach us through faith.

I will say I am with George MacDonald who when he first heard of predestination wept, though assured he was to go to Heaven (though I was never a Calvinist nor did I weep).

I will now reemphasize, everyone has free will but their choice was made before them, outside of time.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. And it is Calvinistic in nature. If God makes a choice for someone, they never had free will to begin with. And God is not so weak that He doesn't have the power to know our hearts and use everything at His disposal to convince us that He can save us. The only thing that stands in His way is that even if He convinces a person He can save them, they may choose not to accept His salvation. This is a requirement, because love requires choice for it to exist since love is a choice.

Keep in mind that God said His will is that all repent and come to a knowledge of God (that all be saved). If God made our choice for us outside of time, and yet He did not choose to do His will, which was to save everyone, then God is cruel and evil, having gone against His on nature. Make sense?

- Brian

[brianc]

Jun 23, 2012 14:15:41 GMT -5 This Baron of Mora said:

Another thing, something I found called "Single Predestination. "

This belief is both officially and unofficially held by most Christian denominations, and says something similar to "free will" in that no one is predestined to hell, but those that believe (all true Christians) are predestined to Heaven. All back this up from some quotes from an extensively researched Wikipedia article on Predestination (I assure its accuracy):

"The Catholic Catechism says:
"God predestines no one to go to hell""

"Lutherans believe that the elect are predestined to salvation. Lutherans believe Christians should be assured that they are among the predestined. "
"you didn't choose God, God chose you in Christ!"

That is not the view held by most Christian denominations, actually. Only by some. Arminianism is the dominate view of most denominations, actually. The following article expresses this:

www.crivoice.org/arminianism.html

Took me about ten seconds to find that article with Google because it's such a well-known fact. Calvinism is dying out in the modern church...has been for quite some time now.

- Brian

[The Old Guy]

I guess I’m joining this discussion late. I’m a new member of the forum.

This seems to be a good discussion. I am a Calvinist – been one for about 35 years. I used to debate about these things, but haven’t done so in years. We all want to glorify God and we’re trying to find our way in the Scriptures to do so – good job everyone – keep digging. Never give up searching for the truth. The Scriptures tell us that we will surely find the truth when we seek it with the whole heart.

I hope everyone in this discussion accomplishes that. BTW, I’m “five pointer” if you know what means. We can all benefit if we are honest with ourselves and most importantly, honest with our God.

[LauraAD]

Jun 19, 2012 20:06:08 GMT -5 Bainespal said:

I want to be both Calvinist and Arminian at the same time. Is that allowed? I believe the apparent contradiction between Free Will and Predestination is a paradox that is utterly impossible for our human mind to resolve. However, existence itself is a paradox that our mind cannot resolve, either. We know God Is, but we can never understand Him. Therefore, I find it easy to believe that Predestination and Free Will can exist together.

I'll probably post more of my thoughts on this subject later; I've thought on it a fair bit. You sure do have an amazing amount of enthusiasm for debating theology, Brian!

I totally agree with you!
After extensive study on this for numerous years, I can only conclude that our Lord is BIGGER than our finite minds can even imagine - and because scripture supports( both in the original languages and contextually) both views- that somehow, someway, our Amazing God manages to make both true.

[The Old Guy]

May I suggest reading an essay by Jonathan Edwards – “An Inquiry into the Modern Prevailing Notions of the Freedom of the Will which is Supposed to be Essential to Moral Agency, Virtue and Vice, Reward and Punishment, Praise and Blame” – yes, long titles were in vogue back in 1754 when it was published.

The Kindle edition is free and the Kindle edition gives you instant word definitions – Edwards uses very precise, large words – so be prepared. This small book literally changed my thinking about the will of man. In case you don’t know, Jonathan Edwards started the greatest revival the United States ever experienced. His other works are also exceptional.

I thought about “translating” this work into English – the kind of English that modern day English speakers can actually read. So, be prepared. It’s a hard read – but worth the effort.

[fluke]

I want to be both Calvinist and Arminian at the same time. Is that allowed?

Yes. It's called Molinism.

This question on free will and predestination goes way back. I found a passage in the Talmud once where it was being discussed:

"On the night a manchild is conceived, an angel flies through Heaven and announces what will be his name, his occupation, and his wife. Yet, in all these things, he still will have free choice."

One of the funniest parts of this centuries long debate is that Martin Luther wrote "On the Bondage of the Will" about a year after he got married. He wrote that in response to Erasmus' "On the Freedom of the Will" (Erasmus was a lifelong bachelor).

[This Baron of Mora]

To those interested in the notion of time, etermity, and God (I realize it's slightly off topic but still relevent and important) here is the only surviving radio broadcast of C.S. Lewis:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHxs3gdtV8A

[The Old Guy]

That was really good!

[aurorawatcher]

I'm somewhat of a Molinist. I believe that God knows the future because He created time for OUR BENEFIT, but He is not subject to it. So for Him, a million years ago is the same as now, is the same as 10,000 years from now. Somehow, He keeps it all straight and we don't need to worry about it because He is God and so much bigger than we are. We need to stop trying to put God in our straitjacket and let Him be Him.

I also believe that we're all born spiritually dead, bound for Hell, unable to help ourselves from going there. Lucky us, God became Jesus so that He could reach out to us and stir our dead selves to desire life. Some respond, some don't and that's OUR problem, not God's. He reaches out to EVERYONE, but we CHOOSE to ignore it, to expect something more than He is willing to give us. That is not God's fault. That's our own foolish decision.

Therefore, we are predestined in that we're born spiritually dead and will go to Hell unless we accept God's offer of grace AND we have free will because He doesn't require us to accept what He's offering. Salvation isn't from anything that we've done other than that we accept what God has done.

And if we don't get that, it's because we want God to conform to our reality. I'm okay with not understanding it completely. It's enough that I know it's true because I can see it throughout the Bible in verses that seem to conflict, but that really present a complete picture when you view them from a long lens.

[The Old Guy]

It feels good to be a creature completely dependent on a God greater than ourselves.

It's truly a sweet thing to believe what the Bible says, isn't it?

A pleasure to meet you.

[metalikhan]

Oct 22, 2012 16:59:22 GMT -5 The Old Guy said:

It feels good to be a creature completely dependent on a God greater than ourselves.

Amen to that!

I'd be really frantic/worried/terrified if I had to depend on my dust-mote size brain!