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Post by morganlbusse on Aug 14, 2012 11:15:06 GMT -5
Yes, some of these can get really annoying. However, not all tropes are bad. And nothing is new under the sun. It's a matter of finding a unique way to represent some of these tropes. Like God. Many of us, because we are writing Christian speculative fiction, will probably have God (or a variation of Him) in our work.
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Post by metalikhan on Aug 15, 2012 10:41:57 GMT -5
Great list! Thought of three you might consider adding. The Wise Elder who tries to steer the errant MC onto the Right Path with sound advice, and sometimes doesn't even say I told you so when the MC botches things. The Foolish Elder who depends on cliche' when giving advice but couldn't find his/her way out of a wet paper sack -- no help in a crisis and more likely to give the advice that helps the MC botch things. The Evil Elder who only wants personal gain/power and tries to use the MC for that end even if it means the destruction of the MC. Yep, Morgan, the challenge is finding a way to bring freshness to the tropes and the stories in which they appear.
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Post by Ranger Varon on Sept 18, 2012 14:22:06 GMT -5
The Conversions: In which the Christian characters and God-figure in the novel finally convince the unsaved hero to join them in Christianity under another name. May or may not include foreshadowing.
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Post by Kessie on Sept 18, 2012 16:35:16 GMT -5
Ranger: I think I already have that under the Altar-Call (the list has been updated since this version was posted). You guys have really good suggestions. :-)
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earthtrekker
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Post by earthtrekker on Sept 19, 2012 6:36:38 GMT -5
I think I have instinctively avoided the tropes and the books that contain them. Though "magic" in my stories is usually some undiscovered or unrecognized (to mainstream science) aspect of what's natural. I see magic in Harry Potter the same way. In one of my horror stories the magic is a kind of resurrection and not natural at all, and it's divinely prompted, so may not be what's called magic.
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earthtrekker
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Post by earthtrekker on Sept 19, 2012 6:46:18 GMT -5
Not on the enlightened, overarching subject but, I read one published short story in which the "hero" is being chased by zombies and falls at the foot of steps of a church. The door is locked. The hero prays and the door to the church opens and lets him in to safety. The end.
And this puts it in mind to ask, what do you think about starting a discussion about the AMC Walking Dead series? The new season is about to begin.
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Post by newburydave on Sept 20, 2012 9:22:50 GMT -5
Not to bring a skunk to the Picnic, buuuut... My attempt to inject Christian themes into the stories I write is about as subtle as a kick in the face (I suppose). I typically people my stories with Spirit Filled Christians, people like me and my friends, and then throw them into the "typical" Sci-Fi/Near Future kind of mayhem that drives so much of published and sold hard sf. My Christian characters react like Christians. They believe God, openly. They worship and give thanks. They pray and get solid answers (that's a normal part of my experience, the only way I've survived 41 years of Christian service actually). They witness to unbelievers and some of them get saved. They engage other people from other religions in spirited debate. Their example leads other people to faith. God intervenes with personal revelations to lead unbelievers (most notably Muslims) to faith; since that is how most Muslim conversions actually occur in the real world. Now if you are going to define all of the normal ways that Christians and God go about the process of evangelizing the world as Tropes then those of us who try to write realistic Hard Sf have a problem. My impression of Tropes from the discussion in the secular boards and the Turkey City Lexicon was that Tropes and Gaffes are supposed to be on the order of: 1) Exaggerated stereotypes which have been so overused as to be rendered ridiculous. Using such in your writing is a clear sign that you are an amateur in the writing game. ie. The Bad Guy's troops / thugs are all terrible shots, therefore they can't hit the hero when he/she's standing in plain sight, picking them off with carefully aimed return fire. The enemy forces are strong as oxen but as stupid as fence posts. The steely eye'd slick detective, wearing a snap brim fedora, who has a bleached blonde, gum clicking, secretary who has a figure that would stop a clock at fifty paces. Said private eye always starts looking for clues at the local bar. The hero is a boy wonder (heroine/girl) who's smarter than all the adults in his life and easily overmatches the evil genius because said bad guy doesn't expect a kid to know anythnig. These are some examples from the secular lists of Tropes. 2) Stylistic Gaffes are things like: Said bookisms - ", he said turning quickly to flee. Tom Swifties - "That was funny," she said laughingly. As you know Bob-isms - (a data dump which is preceeded by the words) "As you know Bob, the real way that ..." [it's a way to insert narrative summary thinly disguised as dialog] Some of the things that I've seen mentioned in the list definitely fall into these categories; but I see a few where I wonder if common realities aren't being mistaken for trite cliches. I do understand the angst though. The totally unrealistic portrayal of the 'common realities' of Christian evangelism and disciplemaking that you find in many literary portrayals IMHO do cause the "situation as it is written" to rise to a trite cliche because everything is soooo easy, unlike anything that requires the "weapons of our Spiritual warfare" that Paul describes in 2 Cor. 10:3-6. I guess this would be my hasty guess at a functional definition of tropes; A Trope is something so trite and unrealistic that it makes the story "Unreal". Since we are trying to cause the reader to "get into" our story and identify with the main characters, or at least understand them, their reasoning and actions, any trite cliches would tend to defeat that mood and render our stories less effective. Thus is seems to me that Tropes can be either Steriotypical "characters" or perhaps more likely, unrealistically oversimplified situations. Does this make sense to anyone else? Write on B-Sibs SGD dave
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Post by Ranger Varon on Sept 20, 2012 10:55:39 GMT -5
I think it makes sense to me.
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Post by Kessie on Sept 20, 2012 17:42:24 GMT -5
I'm going by the TV Tropes definition, which is a story element that gets repeated so many times that it becomes a Thing. Like the Chosen One. Or Nephilim. (Never the post-flood giants, only the preflood ones! I got a kick out of Joshua, when they're conquering the land, and Caleb comes and says, "Can I have Mount Horeb where all the giants have their stronghold?" And Joshua's like, "Sure, whatevs" and Caleb cleans out all the giants and takes their strongholds. Giants = vulnerable to projectiles.)
Dave, just because you have Christian characters who do Christian things does not make you a trope-abuser. None of these tropes are bad. Good writers use them all the time. The trouble is, the bad writers fall back on them instead using their imaginations. (Pick the most original TV series or movie or book or whatever, and it will have a TV Tropes page.)
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earthtrekker
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Post by earthtrekker on Sept 20, 2012 19:40:46 GMT -5
"all of the normal ways that Christians and God go about the process of evangelizing the world"
Not to pick on Dave, but from my perspective the "normal" evangelistic methods today have broken down in the U.S. Meaning that they don't work well anymore and the reason is the failure of the Church and Christians, basically, to address evil in the world... The evil then has invaded Christian homes and the churches. Christian culture, generally, has become Worldly-Lite and this robs our message of integrity and power. I have a number of friends who are open air preachers. They are brave people who go into hostile territory, like on university campuses and to street festivals. They proclaim truth and draw crowds. While this may be effective for some listeners, the preachers to some extent are not communicating. They are speaking an alien language. My approach is to have the Truth deeply imbedded into my stories. Sometimes there are overt aspects. (Dostoyevsky included long passages of Scripture in Crime and Punishment.) I attempt to tell stories that have the best and worst of humanity made in the image of God and thus, hopefully, work on the reader without him being aware of what's happening, as he sees glimpses into the Kingdom (or into Hell.) And if this all seems incomplete, it’s because I'm only getting started on the subject. I suppose a problem with my method is that, quite apart from their quality (which might be good, mediocre or bad, I don't really know) many of my stories are too offensive for publishers, Christian and secular. -Mick
p.s. Now, as for witnessing to Muslims or other non-Westerners, the traditional approaches are still effective, I believe.
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Post by newburydave on Sept 21, 2012 15:43:29 GMT -5
I agree that much of the "popular" evangelsitic 'stuff' is powerless. Now by popular I mean the slick, mass produced "Evangelism Scripts".
If you want to truly evangelize you have to give yourself to people because you love them, just as Jesus did. The really sad thing is that the powerlessness that makes them "Tropes" is due to at least two things:
1) the Church that has no real spiritual power because it is morally impure. World-Lite, eh; I like that. The old timers that brought us to God taught that we have to live pure lives to protect the power of God in us (no not rule keeping, pharasee pure; Perfect unconditional Christlike Love pure). All immorality and impurity is an expression of selfishness/self-centeredness and a violation of Unconditional Love to God and Man.
When we allow selfishness to rule our actions (live in sin) it's like letting a high tension electric transmission line drag on the ground. It grounds the circuit so there is no "spiritual voltage potential" left in us to do any redemptive work through us.
Most modern "organized evangelism" strikes me a being like trying to vacuum a deep pile rug with a vacuum cleaner that's not plugged in. You expend a lot of effort, follow the right technique but don't pick anything up in terms of bringing souls to new life.
2) the church is powerless because it trusts in human activity, teaching, organization and programs instead of courting the presence (and hence the power) of our Sovereign, Omnipotent God. It's a sad fact that most professing Christian's I talk to these days don't even know what God's presence is or what He can do when he visits us, inhabits our worship in redemptive power.
Jesus said "We will do Greater Works than He did when the Holy Spirit inhabits and fills the members of the Church." That still works, I've tested it and I know; but sadly, few people today will pay the price of real intimacy with God, unreserved total devotion to God and God alone, keeping filled with the Spirit whatever it takes and the life of sacrifice (the Crucified life of Rom. 12:1-2) which is the measure of true discipleship.
Barna found that nearly 90% of people who came to were lastingly converted to Christ (as opposed to those who made a profession then fell away) did so through the instrumentality of a friend of family member who they knew well enough to know that their Christianity was genuine, that they trusted and loved. In short they were won by people who did the hard personal work to earn the right to talk to them about eternal things.
Of the hundreds of church people I've known during my pilgrimage there have only been a handful who were sincere enough, loving enough, genuine enough and spiritually minded enough to feel that familial bond of brotherhood/sisterhood in Christ such that I knew I could trust them with my soul, my reputation and my life.
If you want to make someone your brother of sister in Christ, first you have to be a brother or sister to them while they are still reveling in their sinful rebellion against God and truth. Just like Jesus did for each of us. That's more of a sacrifice than most religious people are willing to make. In truth it's something that only Christ in us can do when we fully surrender to him.
When you do that, the old methods work.
SGD dave
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earthtrekker
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Post by earthtrekker on Sept 22, 2012 5:23:57 GMT -5
I agree, generally, Dave, and would add 3, which is what I do, or try to do, sometimes alone but with people behind me.
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Post by stormiel on Oct 22, 2012 3:25:48 GMT -5
Kessie, I think I've seen at least one of those tropes in just about every Christian book I've read lol. Do you think that there is any hope of reworking any of these tropes into interesting stories?
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Post by Kessie on Oct 22, 2012 18:35:03 GMT -5
Stormiel: Oh sure, it can be done well. Lots of fantasy books pull off the Chosen One trope with aplomb. Or count how many of the Christian evangelism tropes were in the Mitford series (sorry, I know it's not speculative). Yet Jan Karon wrote them so lovingly and so truthfully that we loved the stories, tropes though they were.
I had a story one time that sounded horrible if I spun it toward its tropes.
"An orphan goes to live with his evil uncle who keeps a monster locked in his barn. His uncle chains the orphan in the basement and his friends have to save him before it's too late."
Or I could spin it toward its unique parts.
"A young couple tries to adopt the orphan who has been living with them for three years. But this results in a custody battle with the orphan's uncle, who can't wait to return the orphan to the regime of abuse that caused the orphan to run away three years prior. Along the way, they uncover a lurking monster so terrible it causes anyone facing it to black out. The only way to destroy it is to find all the pieces of a suit of emerald-encrusted armor, and only the orphan can decipher the clues."
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rjj7
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Post by rjj7 on Oct 30, 2012 14:16:32 GMT -5
Here's a suggestion:
Mothers: These exist to be the primary Christian influence in the protagonist's past. They die long before the story begins, thus causing the protagonist to be angry at God on account of bad things happening to good people.
Excellent list, by the way. I laughed at most of the entries. ;D
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