To close a monster?

[fluke]

I have a monster in my WIP that I describe like this.

"The Children of Dagon are not human, dwarf, elf, or Sachalin. They were not created by the Father. They were made from magic and are aberrations."

"Sachalin were made from magic," Syantere' said. "Why don't you call them aberrations."

Angrily I poked her in the back. This was Phaeus' story, and she should not interrupt.

"A very good question, Syantere'. Sachalin were made by magically combining the bodies of living humans and great cats such as lions, tigers, and cheetahs. The Children of Dagon were made much longer ago, and no humans, elves, or dwarves were used in their making. Yet, they are intelligent, cunning, and wicked."

"What was used in their breeding for that," I asked.

"Demons," he said. "The Children of Dagon were the result of magic and demons' possession of different creatures."

"Like the Watchers did," I said, referring to an ancient legend about the days before Noah's flood.

He nodded. "Very like the Watchers that Enoch described. I once asked Sanuto what he hoped to do with the Children. He replied, 'Hope is the worst of all emotions because it makes us believe that our actions matter.'"

And later:

As we marched forward, the ground shook and four mounds of earth rose and burst open.

In each one stood a Child of Dagon. They were eight-feet tall, thin, and roughly human shaped. Blue scales covered their skin and leathery, bat-like wings unfurled behind each one. They had four, terrible claws on each hand, but their faces were the worst. Father Phaeus' descriptions earlier had not prepared me for this sight. Their heads were mottled and misshapen. They looked like squid that I had seen in the seaside cities. Around each mouth hung four, squirming tentacles.

"He only managed to awaken a few soldiers," Father Phaeus said. "None of their wizards."

As you read this, you might be put in mind of D&D's Illithids. However, my inspiration was a painting of Cthulhu (which was a major source for Gygax also when he did the Illithids). As both the Illithids and my Children of Dagon come from the same base, similarity in their description shouldn't be surprising. But are they too close?

I am trying to avoid intellectual property disputes. A webcomic I read just got slapped with one from WotC/Hasbro over making a plush toy from the rust monster. Even though the rust monster is not stated to be IP, Hasbro still sued claiming IP infringement.

Thank you!

[Kessie]

The written description sounds like both the Cthulhu image and the mindflayers from D&D. You could always go read a bit about eldritch abominations, which I believe is the technical term for these things. Lots of tentacles and gristle. Also bits of sea creatures, like crab claws. I think Lovecraft had a phobia of ocean critters.

I think the bigger trademark is the reaction to such creatures--looking at them causes insanity. In the Dresden books, when he looks at one, he instantly blacks out, so he forces himself to look at pictures of them over and over until he can bear it.

It's not so much how the thing looks--it's how your heroes react to it.

I had great fun once in a fanfic adapt of a game. The game's final boss was fairly run-of-the-mill, just a big lizard thing to beat down. But I made it the center of this creeping dread mind that weighed on the heroes as they drew closer to its lair. Looking at it was very difficult because the dread emanating from it made your whole body want to collapse and curl into the fetal position.

[fluke]

I looked at other eldritch abominations also, but the cthuloid inspired me the most. HPL almost definitely had a phobia of the ocean.

I had no idea that a reaction could be trademarked. Whenever anyone gets close to a place where the Children of Dagon are buried, they get sick (this even happens to a couple of vampires). Those who live in that part of the city are always sickly.

[Kessie]

Gah, I should choose my words more carefully. I didn't mean TRADEMARK trademark--more like, the sickness reaction is a hallmark of such creatures. Seeing as how common such beasties are in other books, games, etc, I think it's probably public domain. Kind of like vampires. Nobody owns vampires and everybody uses them.

[fluke]

Sorry I misunderstood. That's a relief.

When first writing the Squid Faced Monsters (as I called them before Children of Dagon), I looked at the Illithid description and consciously made sure I had differences, even changing parts of the Children to be less Illithid-like.

[myrthman]

I immediately thought of the Illithid when I read your description (before I got to your question). However, the blue and the wings threw me off a little. What if they didn't have legs, but just flew everywhere?

[fluke]

I immediately thought of the Illithid when I read your description (before I got to your question). However, the blue and the wings threw me off a little. What if they didn't have legs, but just flew everywhere?

Oooh! Like an Illithid crossed with a Yuan-ti*. I'm liking it a lot! And I think that is even creepier.

*I have never denied being a geek.

[beckyminor]

Jan 10, 2013 11:41:15 GMT -5 fluke said:

I immediately thought of the Illithid when I read your description (before I got to your question). However, the blue and the wings threw me off a little. What if they didn't have legs, but just flew everywhere?

Oooh! Like an Illithid crossed with a Yuan-ti*. I'm liking it a lot! And I think that is even creepier.

*I have never denied being a geek.

That made me laugh. But you are right to be careful about the use of the illithid-like creature, as I believe the Mind Flayer and the Beholder are protected as intellectual property, and I doubt that Hasbro will be terribly flexible in relation to a creature that resembles a Mind Flayer too closely. But if you change the body type somewhat also, they can't exactly claim to own the idea of tentacles on a face.

[fluke]

Mind Flayers are IP, which is why I asked if it was too close. But you're right that they can't claim to own the whole idea as Gygax was inspired by the cover art of The Burrowers Beneath which was in turn inspired by Lovecraft's Cthulhu mythos, specifically the descriptions of great Cthulhu himself and the other old ones. And HPL opened his works and worlds to be used by others. But caution does not hurt. I think they were different enough with just the wings but adding the snake lower half is even better.

[Ranger Varon]

Well, the copyright on Lovecraft's work is complicated, but it generally seems to be agreed that his stuff, at least the Cthulu mythos is public domain, I think, at least. So you might want to lean more towards Lovecraft's stuff than anything from D&D. And Lovecraft uses Dagon too, so I have a very Lovecraftian vibe in those excerpts.

[myrthman]

Dagon is also Biblical. I think you're in good waters, Frank.

[metalikhan]

Aside from the copyright issue, using another's specific creation (in this case, the Cthlulhu mythos) is closer to fan-fic than creating something unique. Other writers have written stories in Lovecraft's milieu (Robert Bloch is one) but the milieu and stories were always acknowledged as Lovecraftian.

It's a bit like the difference between orcs and uruk-hai. There were references to the word orc/ork (including variations of ogre) predating Tolkien's work, but the uruk-hai was Tolkien's specific creation with no prior appearance in other writings or etymologies.

But Dagon is an old Babylonian god. Renditions of him often look like a merman -- half-man, half-fish -- but (deep mining in memory) I think he started out as a god of fertility and grains. Some digging in mythology will likely provide more than enough information to play with and make your version of Dagon and his children/followers uniquely your own.

[fluke]

I hear what you're saying, metalikhan, but I choose Cthulhu for my initial inspiration of the Children of Dagon for a specific reason. The CoD are inspired by Cthulhu but are not identical. One of HPL's running themes is the hopelessness of life, the lack of personal purpose in the universe, and the complete malevolence of any godlike beings there might be.

This is about as opposite of Christianity as one can get.

The villain, Lord Sanuto, gives voice to HPL's philosophy. I used the philosophy of nihilists like Lovecraft, Jean-Paul Sartre, Albert Cambus, and Friedrich Nietzsche to make Sanuto's profile. Sanuto says things like, "Hope is the worst of all emotions because it makes us believe that our actions matter" and "All of us are just insignificant specks on this lonely planet. No one rejoiced when the races were born nor will they mourn when the last dies. Nothing in the cosmos cares about any of us."

His beliefs are counterpoint to the point of the story.

Spoiler alert: Highlight the below text with your mouse if you want to read it.

"Once Called" explores how Derke, a blessed man, a prophet even, who rebelled against God for about ten years and then repented can be used again. He believes he absolutely cannot be used in the same way. He believes his ministry now will always be shadowed by what he did. He believes that he is no prophet (he repeats this several times). But Father Phaeus, the clean-shaven priest of the Dwarven Orthodox Church, teaches him, "Once the Father calls, He does not uncall." It takes most of the story for Derke to have his epiphany that the father is correct.

And if anyone is curious, Father Phaeus' profile was written after reading a lot of GK Chesterton. In ways, the stories are a debate between Lovecraft and Chesterton. ;D

[myrthman]

When can we read it?

[fluke]

Right now, the release date is May 15th. There is still editing and room for minor changes, but this is scheduled to be part of a single author collection from Cross and Cosmos. metalikhan's collection will come out first.