Vestraten: Characters & Plot

[Bought In Blood]

Kessie-
Personally, I despise Game of Thrones (Song of Ice and Fire). I feel that it is a directionless world full of horrible, selfish, evil people. I know it’s a popular series so I apologize if I stepped on too many toes. However, I do agree with you in that I like shades of grey when dealing with people and factions. For the most part, humans (mankind) are selfish, arrogant, and wicked unless they have been freed from sin, then they’re just selfish, arrogant, and wicked most of the time, but getting better (Praise God!). I don’t know if I like each faction to believe themselves to be utterly righteous per se (but I may be arguing against your word choice rather than your actual point) because I prefer it when characters people just have solid motivation for whatever they’re doing rather than claiming that they’re irreproachable.
In regards to any capital ‘E’ Enemy, I don’t like it when that’s the central focus of conflict. I also don’t like villains that want to destroy the world ‘for the Evulz’. Although Vestraten is targeting a younger audience, then that’s fine. I just have a personal preference for a tragic villain with a somewhat sympathetic motivation. (Anyone here see Chronicle? Best sympathetic villain I’ve seen in a long, long time).

@joel P.-
I figured you were going for a Latin based thing (I dabble in Latin myself). I was just poking fun and I’m glad you weren’t offended. I ask you then, to be forgiving in regards to my next point. I don’t see the difference between having an army of an ‘evil’ race that cannot be reasoned with, and having a mind controlled evil army that cannot be reasoned with… Maybe you’d have a few more story options, but the core threat is exactly the same. However, if I understand correctly, you are the one who started this whole Vestraten thing. Therefore, I defer to you and your coauthor’s preference of antagonistic forces. That said, as a potential reader/critic of Vestraten, I would have a hard time warming up to a mind controlled evil army unless you pull it off in a very creative way (perhaps long-term brainwashing/Hitler effect as opposed to a mind-control MacGuffin).

@randy-
I’m going to stand my ground and just say that I don’t think Tolkien races should touch the story at all because every fantasy ever made ever (after Tolkien) has included the Five Races. I’m not a fan of Orcs either, in anything other than Tolkien’s work, because they are either the stereotypical ‘always evil’ race, or writers think they’re being creative by saying “No, see I’m special. MY orcs are good.” And the idea of good orcs is just silly. It’s an unfortunate catch 22 situation that’s best resolved by just not having orcs at all, IMO.

Comments? Thoughts? Insults?

[stormiel]

Joel, I'm with you on the no unicorns in any shape or form plan lol.

[Joel P.]

I'M NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO HATES GAME OF THRONES!!!
Sorry, just had to yell that.

I'll have to think about the mind control some more and get back to you.

Actually, I can name an epic fantasy which doesn't have the stereotypical five races (though it had four, they were very different Tolkien's): The Binding of the Blade. Oh, and another: The Wheel of Time. You are referring to epic fantasies alone, right?

[rjj7]

I don't hate it, but then, I've never read it, because I am quite sure that if I did, I would hate it, but I avoid forming strong opinions of things I haven't read, so I don't let myself hate it when I haven't read it, even though if I did, I would, and commas give me a, warm, fuzzy, feeling,,.

And just so everyone's aware, the gauntlet has been thrown. Someday, somewhere, I'm going to write a fantasy story that has elves, orcs, and dwarves in it. And it will be awesome.

It's not the cliches you use, it's how you use them.


But yeah, for now, we'll give them the boot.

P.S. While I'm happy that most people don't seem to be terribly disappointed by the disinclusion of unicorns, some of the sentiments expressed seem to be bordering on a hatred for the entire species in all their forms. One gauntlet is on the floor, but I've still got one left.

[Bought In Blood]

My comment about “every fantasy ever made ever (after Tolkien)” including the Five Races was meant to be humorous, not serious. I’m sure there are plenty of fantasy books (Game of Thrones included) that don’t have Tolkien’s races. I just feel that they are a trite and worn out element.

You all remember when this vampire business started up? One author gets ludicrously successful by making a series that panders to insecure teenage girls and all other prospective authors want to surf on the waves that the series created. What do they do? Rip off elements from the successful piece and hope some of that fame rubs off on their work as well. I feel that this scenario is very similar to the Tolkien races as well. Prospective writer thinks “I want to write a fantasy story. What do people like in their fantasy? Well, Tolkien was uber-successful in creating a timeless fantasy (as well as effectively redefining the genre forever) so I’ll just borrow some of his elements and associate my work to his.”

Before wrathful flames enkindle, please know that I am not accusing any of you of the above train of thought. Unfortunately, readers can’t really tell the difference between whether you are honestly just trying to write a good story or trying to surf of off Tolkien’s fame. The same can be said for anyone writing vampire fiction. Even if you have a great idea, an original concept, incredible plot, etc, people will still cram you into the same block as all the other vampire-romance knockoffs.

Don’t get me wrong, I think that ripping off Tolkien can be done well (good luck Randy), but if I were looking for a fantasy book to read, I wouldn’t pick something that has races and elements of the setting copied from another writer. Maybe I’m a bit harsh, but if I want to read about elves, dwarves, and orcs, there’s this great trilogy about a ring that you may have heard of…

I don’t want to make a mountain out of a molehill here. I’m just a friendly observer, not a participant. However I do feel that, in respect to fantasy races, if you are planning to make your orcs, elves, and dwarves different than how Tolkien wrote them, why bother calling them the same thing? In my opinion, tying a creative concept down to an already overdone setting just discredits your originality and imagination. All of you seem to have great imaginations and I’m sure you could write something much more original that would really stand out if you break away from the tropes a little more.

Of course, you may completely disagree with me. And that’s OK.

[rjj7]

I wasn't intending to make a big deal out of anything either. But I think you made a bigger one than I did.

[Joel P.]

I'm posting this to both this thread and the Cultures & Magic thread so we can stay up to date. Head over to C&M (wherethemapends.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=newcollaborative&thread=2384&page=3) for the discussion. Thanks.

We have two stories here. The first (I think?) story setting is more or less like this...

The world in which Vestraten is set has always had these thin semi-magical mists sitting on the surface of the oceans. These mists are the subject of some superstition, but have never done any harm. The magic system of the world is based on specific powers (e.g. earth, fire, water, mind, etc) of which each magic-user is gifted with only one.

Our villain (who was an evil wizard of the old magic system) has taken it into his head to infuse the mists with dark mental power (i.e. power derived from the Enemy and coupled with his own gift) and turn them into carnivorous purple people eaters. (sorry, couldn't resist) As he does that, the mists begin to consume water to reproduce and grow in size and density; at the same time lowering the water level of the world and inducing a global cooling effect. Now, this takes a long time (a minimum of 70 years), but wizards have long lives, y'know.

As the mists grow in size and strength, so does the wizard's power. He's able to control the mist almost all the time; so we have some attacks on villages and stuff to set the scene for the conflict.

Okay. The second story setting is like this....

Our heroes stopped the transformation of the mists and 'fixed' them - but that has its own problems. The world is now generally colder, as the mists are thicker and denser than previously. The oceans are mostly inaccessible due to the fact the mists consumed water to reproduce (while staying on top of the water), so ships have been designed to float on the surface of the mists. Long exposure to the mists without protective gear is detrimental to one's health; but spies, assassins, and secret couriers still use water-ships anyway, as it's faster and less detectable.

(An interesting idea to balance out the ecology would be that the mists don't like the cold; so even though they may still have the ability to reproduce, that ability will be curtailed by the fact they can't or won't do it in the cold; which is their fault anyway.)

Anyway. The mists can now be used to power mechanical devices, which fact our heroes found out as they were questing in the last book. This is bringing about a steampunk industrial revolution, with mist-ships and water-ships both using the mist as a power source; mist-mills along the coasts, etc. The plot of this story will be political intrigue.

Now, let's have a QUICK round of objections, suggestions, and clarifications so we can move on with the plot and culture development.

[rjj7]

Okay, trying to move the plot and character discussion in here. At the moment, I think we need to pick a general tone/theme/villainous idea and get it set down so we can work on the heroes. Obviously, nothing is set in stone, so we needn't feel pressured to make a final decision, or anything.

How's this for an idea w/regard to the villains: There is actually a whole group/club/brotherhood of wizards who are somewhat responsible for the mist-growth. Most of them are well meaning, and think they are just researching something beneficial. They exist in the open, are not at all secretive, and are intending their research to benefit humanity.

Meanwhile, their leader has taken most of their findings, perverted them, made his pact with evil, and is starting to implement "field tests" without the knowledge of most of the group. Field tests advanced to actual implementation (though he's still perfecting his technique as he goes along). Rumors start spreading of problems, but most of the group ignores it, as it obviously doesn't have any connection with their own work.

Our heroes and story would come in just before everything starts becoming unignorable. Our heroes might even be the messengers of doom that plant a seed of uneasiness amongst the wizards.

This sort of setup would allow us to have interviews with various wizards who can honestly assure our heroes that their fears are groundless and the clues that led them to this place were false (while having a few slimeballs in the mix). Then our heroes can bump into other people who know better. Some underground, or possibly mages from another race/nation. It would give us a bit more of a spy/detective feel to the story.

Lets have other thoughts put out, hash the best parts of em all together, and get a move on. Quickly! Before my remaining life essence fades!


EDIT: 4/9/2013 - Just popping back in to say I'm still here.

[Joel P.]

If you're undead, you have no life essence left. You're just...un-dead. *shrug*

Anyway, good to see you're back!

Yeah, okay, that could work. Personally, I'm burnt out on the planning....so don't expect much more than the occasional objection from me.

Is anyone other than Randy and I interested in actually writing the stories?

[rjj7]

Hi again. Missed yesterday; was in a meeting till 11:15 or so.

Sorry about your burnout on the planning. In that case, why don't we just put in place a scholarly community with a number of research projects going on (just like in the real world). We can decide a little bit later on whether there's actually a group thing, or whether our villain is just a lone rogue. In fact, we could even write in several characters as candidates for the villain and pick which one we want after we've started the story rolling. Might make the actual writing a little bit more interesting.

So how about heroes? Where are we starting this story off? Lower classes, I imagine. I'm gonna quote stormiel's post from the previous page.

Brinn (male): Only survivor of a small group of soldiers (maybe some sort of small battle or ambush in the conflict leading up to the main event). Wonders from town to town as a merchant. He hides the scars of his face as well as the shame and guilt of his past beneath the hood of his cloak.

Zara (female): Assassin sent to kill the prophet, Miran. She is very deceptive and can change forms to fit her need. She plays on the sympathies of her enemies.

Ada (female): Outcast. She has a gift for speaking the truth to those who need it, but is rarely taken seriously. Sometimes she's impulsive and seems to attract trouble. (I think it would be fun to make her and Zara archenemies)

Miran (male) The prophet. Miran is older and is very kind. He's always willing to help anyone that he can and takes both Brinn and Ada under his wing to help them become all that they were meant to be (a long journey for all).

I'll get round to posting my suggestions tomorrow probably. For now, contact has been reestablished, and I'm going to be trying the "slow and steady" approach (as hopefully being a lot better than my "make a half a dozen mega posts every day for two weeks then disappear for a month" approach )

[rjj7]

Characters: I think it would be cool if someone had something to do with our central conflict. For example, if our villain is trying to bring about a new world order ruled by the wizards, maybe we need someone who has had first-hand experience with the pain and consequences of disorder. Someone who can look at the evil guys and see the good in their plans. In this example, a soldier (like Brinn) who can see the appeal of a world with a ruling caste, even if that caste is not admirable in all regards. This may not be necessary, but I think it would be cool to demonstrate the "appeal" of the darkness.

This character doesn't have to be the main character; in fact, I think it is often more effective if it is a secondary character. It allows one to be a little more subtle with the struggle and avoid shoving it in the reader's face.

For now, I'm just going to start a list of possible 'motivators' from which we can grab a character or two.

1. Order; a soldier, or possibly someone who lost family/livelihood to brigands. This person would be tempted by the offer of order so that the wars wouldn't happen again. Or it might just be someone who is rather weak-willed, and wants security.

2. Medicine; someone who is scarred, terminally ill, or very old, or else someone who lost loved ones to disease. Might be tempted by the offer of a magical age that could offer healing.

3. Anti-feudal; someone who sees the current feudal system as hopelessly flawed, and sees the overthrow as a good thing.



I may not be online over the weekend, but will try to get a few minutes in.


4-15 EDIT: Hello from the weekend. I'll try to pick this up again tomorrow, but it's a bit late at the moment.

[rjj7]

Thinking about things, what with stormiel already handing us an ex-soldier as a character suggestion, I'm thinking that maybe we should have the establishment of order be a big theme for the characters. We have this villain who is trying to make himself a dictator (and establish wizards as a ruling caste?), and if we demonstrate some genuine benefits to the evil guy taking control, it makes the conflict a little more meaningful. Which isn't to say the villain has to have a good side. He can be as selfish and evil as we want. But even an evil tyrant has some advantages over anarchy.

This seems to indicate that we need recent turmoil. And probably some current turmoil. Gonna go review the Ecology and History thread and put a few speculations in there.

EDIT: We could even have some "good" characters helping the evil guy, because they believe that it will be easier to "fix" the world once there is an iron fist controlling it.

[Joel P.]

Toil, toil, turmoil and trouble? I'm currently working on the ancient history of my main high-fantasy world, and boy is there a lot of turmoil. The biggest thing is the Xenocide War, when the [redacted] attempted to wipe out the other races and the old magic system was almost used to [redacted]. (As River would say, 'Spoilers....')

Yes, it's always interesting to have a 'hero' who is slightly sympathetic toward the villain's plan. Or, for comedy, is just plain evil (Belkar in The Order of the Stick or Richard in Looking For Group) But I think we should actually start writing and throw in characters as they come up....

[rjj7]

Probably a good idea. But we need a starting point. So until we start the writing, I'll probably continue to toss out ideas with regard to the main character. I guess we're starting with an ex-soldier named Brinn? Of course, we can introduce multiple viewpoint characters as we go along.

Part of my ideas for a war in the History thread were so we could have a character who has had first hand experience with anarchy and devastation. The destruction of Tsortea would provide plenty of background for us to work with. And because it was also in large part a naval war, we could add in some particularly traumatic experiences. Like a felled mast blocking a hatch, the ship is sinking, and our hero is trying to bust the hatch open because his friend is trapped beneath decks. And--he fails. Ship goes down, and our hero spends a day or two floating in mistwater on a piece of wreckage. If it comes to that, we could have a lot of veterans of the war suffering from mist-induced trauma (if we decide that extended inhalation of the mists is a bad idea).



And yes, evil characters can be a hoot. Though I shy away from humor where someone actually gets eviscerated. Captain DuPree, from Girl Genius, is my favorite example of an evil character intended for comedy. The authors do a good job of keeping the funnies non-lethal and theoretical (Richard was a little too violent for me; Belkar was a more tolerable level. If I didn't absolutely hate reading webcomics at a rate of <=3 pages a week, I'd still be reading OotS; right now, I'm letting it buffer ).

[stormiel]

You guys don't have to use any of the characters I came up with. I don't know how well they actually would fit into the story line you are coming up with. But if you do want to, feel free. I think I'm going to opt out because I don't feel that at this time I can give this project the kind of time that it needs. I'm really sorry.