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Post by myrthman on Feb 14, 2013 9:58:26 GMT -5
Alas, of the titles listed, I have read only LOTR.
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Joel P.
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Post by Joel P. on Feb 14, 2013 10:59:41 GMT -5
Okay; since we're bogged down on this point, let me provide some clarity. We mostly agree on the following: 1. The world is being invaded by an energy-laden mist/fog. 2. The energy contained therein is being tapped for magical use. 3. The mists have a certain affinity for water - they sit on the surface of the oceans and occasionally appear on land-bound water.
Now, I'm going to try to combine everything else we've talked about to reach a compromise. Here goes.
The world has, since the beginning of time, had mists atop the oceans. These mists were static, and were a source of energy which could be tapped mechanically (but not psychically or whatever you want to call magic-based energy use). Now someone, with inspiration from the Enemy, has found a way of changing the mists to a growing, malignant form; one which can be tapped for use in magic. With the slow change to a malignant form, the mists have begun to thicken (where before they were well-nigh gossamer) and consume water to produce more mist (so are they a living thing, then? Reproduction is one of the prerequisites to being considered alive). Mist is obviously less dense than water, so the water consumption wasn't noticeable at first. But gradually, as the mists thicken, the temperature of the water is being driven down. The icecaps begin to grow, and the sea level begins to shrink noticeably.
So far as I can tell, this reconciles most of the ideas and arguments.
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Bought In Blood
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Post by Bought In Blood on Feb 14, 2013 13:19:25 GMT -5
Hey gang, So I’ve tried to do my homework and read all of your previous threads before I blab about on well trodden ground.
Since this is my first post and I am not a member of your group, feel free to disregard any input I have.
Here it goes: You could have the mists being all neutral and static and just an accepted part of the world, until some great inventor/wizard creates a “mist-shard” (Forgive the uncreative term, change as you will), a solid crystalline substance made of the concentrated essence of the mists (or Mysts if you’re into Xtreme Kool Letterz). Said mist-shard has a number of properties that allow it to be used as fuel, weaponry, channeling magic, or what have you. That way, you could have the industrial revolution exploding as new technology is rapidly invented in the wake of this new discovery and the various cultures (or one culture if that’s your focus) is almost going mad with how much they are experimenting with this newfound tech.
You could then establish that the mists have been a long standing factor in the world, but have only recently been ‘harnessed’ for the use of magic, magitech, or anything else you like. In addition, you could have a whole new profession of Philosopher Scientists who are constantly competing for scientific recognition and their inventions can get pretty crazy. Depending on how much Magitech you want in this story, you could have one such Philosopher invent a harness, helmet, suit, whatever, that can allow a person to exert their will through a mist-shard and do magical things. You could have mist-shards getting placed into automaton armor suits and create technothralls. Ships and siege weapons could use the mist-shards as fuel and a primitive ‘boiler’ engine could be invented. Zeppelins and other airships could ride the mists by using the technology that harnesses it. Whole armies could be raised and nations that were weaker in strength but strong in resources could soon become the dominating power through use of mechanized armies of automatons/technothralls. Warrior-wizards, Sorcerer-Soldiers, and several other factions that use this power could come into existence and massive power struggles could run rife through the land. Also, fishing villages and farms near the mist’s edge would see an explosion of population and industry as they have become the site of a new commodity that is in high demand. There could be a whole new type of ‘fishing’ where airships fitted with a special mist harvesting apparatus would sail through the mists harvesting their essence to made into mist-shards.
All that being said, the constant harvest of the mists could cause them to go into a flux and mist-tides could be a factor now. You mentioned that the mists could be draining the oceans, maybe the mists are now replenishing themselves by using up ocean water. Undisturbed until now, the mists could be changing simply due to all the attention that they are receiving of late.
Finally, CONFLICT! You could have some enemy (an individual, a group, or the big capital ‘E’) develop a way to ‘poison’ the mists. There could be sections of mists are now considered blighted (fun terms: Everblight, the Black Blight, the Crimson Blight, etc) and because they are in flux, ocean shore towns would now have a whole new threat to face as blighted mists could wash over their towns and do God-knows-what (mutate people/animals into monsters, cause plagues, droughts, people start hearing voices in their heads, whispers of the Enemy, etc).
For a twist, you could incorporate what rjj7 said and have the king, under threat of being replaced or diminished by a new government, striking a deal with the enemy to use this blighted mist threat as a way to gain power and influence or some political play like that. Also, you could have this blighted mist be capable of being harnessed to make darkmist-shards or blight-shards or whatever Xtreme-Kool-name-you-want-shards that are used for evil purposes. In closing, I know a lot of my mist-shard idea has environmentalist undertones, but that is not really my intention. It’s all in how you write it, so you can emphasize thematic elements or leave them be as you will. Also, I’m just throwing in my two cents worth and I will not be hurt or offended if you don’t care for my ideas. I’m just offering them up for you to do with them as you will.
Any thoughts?
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Post by Kessie on Feb 14, 2013 15:15:18 GMT -5
Hey BiB, I like the way you think! This is sounding more epic all the time!
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Post by stormiel on Feb 14, 2013 17:53:17 GMT -5
So far I like almost all of the ideas I've read. I personally would like to have a Christian element to the story, because for me, He is why I write. It doesn't always have to be forced.
Other than that my favorites of what I've read so far are Rjj's political plot, Kessie's mana idea, and Joel's tweaking of the idea to have an ocean underneath that is slowly falling. I dont have much to add for plot, I'm a character first kinda gal. So I'll go along with what the majority decides.
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Post by Kessie on Feb 14, 2013 19:21:27 GMT -5
Stormiel: The Christian element, I've found, works best on the character level. We're still planning the worldbuilding and cultural stuff, and we don't need to worry about Christian elements much with those bits.
But speaking of which, what kinds of deity will this world have? I'm personally partial to pantheons. I've read better portrayals of numinous awe with pantheons, say, in Dragonlance or Megan Whalen Turner's Queen's Thief books, than I ever have with the standard Christian God-and-Jesus-and-Satan.
For a standard pantheon, you have a god for each character alignment--Lawful Good, Chaotic Good, Neutral Good, Neutral Neutral, Lawful Evil, Chaotic Evil, Neutral Evil. The one closest to Jehovah would be Lawful God, of course, and he'd be the Odin or the Zeus figure. The others would deal with different aspects of running the world/worshippers/whatever else gods do.
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rjj7
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Post by rjj7 on Feb 14, 2013 22:26:31 GMT -5
Topic I: The Christianity of the Storystormiel: Just so that everyone (meaning me) understands what you're after, what do you mean by Christian elements? For example, I get little thrills when reading The Lord of the Rings and hearing Gandalf tell Frodo that he was meant to find the ring, and not by the ring's maker. That there is another power at work in the world. And later, at the council of Elrond, how all these people came together from the far corners of the earth purely by chance; each of them had his own personal errand unrelated to anyone else's, and yet somehow, they all happened to come together precisely at the same time that the ring is found and the fate of the world hangs in balance. It is very clear that there is a higher power at work in the story, and that is Christian enough for me. But is it Christian enough for you? I think your request is entirely reasonable, I'm just trying to pin down precisely what your request is. [EDIT] Topic I(b): The Deities of our WorldKessie: I am in general opposed to a Pantheon unless it is a vague pantheon that makes no claims to having created the world or being all that there is. For example, I don't mind Tolkien's "pantheon", because he makes it clear that they are only "gods" in the sense that they are immortal, supernatural beings with vast power, and that there is a god-with-a-capitol-'g' who is behind the scenes doing what God does. We wouldn't have to state such in the story, but I would prefer if we at least leave that ambiguous. I do like your idea of having deities of different alignment, though perhaps we could have it something a little more like this: HYPERLINKI am also in agreement that we should also avoid the standard "God, Jesus, and Satan". Which is not say that we can't decide that that is how the world is, but we wouldn't have to intentionally draw attention to the fact, as nearly all Christian fiction does. [/EDIT] Topic II: Bought In Blood@blood (I'll call you this, rather than BiB): I will start by saying that I do not like most of your specific ideas for applied magic. It seems to me that they would move us away from fantasy and into the quasi-scifi realm. One could call the Protoss in StarCraft magic, but it would still feel like Science Fiction. Likewise here, I think that it smacks too much of energy crystals, battle-bots, and mechanized armies. On the other hand, I'm not adamantly opposed to mixing a bit of soft-scifi into the story if everyone else wants to. As far as the general concept of magic crystals, I think that it's a great idea. It fits in pretty well with my own inclinations, so I'll just leave it at that for now. I'll reference some of your other (good) ideas later in the post, so hopefully you understand that I'm overall very positive with regard to your ideas, despite opening on a negative note. Topic III: The Mists of Debate@joel: Your idea is admirably addressing my initial concerns of science and evil (which, as I mentioned before, were highly reactionary, and very premature). However, we're coming up against another potential clash, which I will hopefully illustrate so that it can be resolved now rather than later. To start with, I will modify your points of agreement to the following. 1. We have magical mists in our world that have an affinity for water. 2. The energy contained in the mists is being tapped for some sort of magical use, in the sense that it's something that can't be done with boring old real-world mist (whether we have a distinction between 'old use of mists' and 'new use of mists' is a separate matter). 3. The mists are currently changing their behavior; either because of influence of an enemy or because of natural factors. This change of behavior ties into the present conflict. The following is not a point of agreement, but it is an idea that has been referenced a couple of times, so I'm going to put in the table for discussion and official acceptance/rejection. 4. The mists are replacing water and thereby threatening the ecology of the world. This seems to be an idea dear to Joel, which means that as far as I'm concerned, when all is said and done, if he wants it in, it's going in [see my comments in the original poll thread about Joel being our benevolent dictator ]. And furthermore, the story will be awesome if we include this idea (see my comment in the other thread about how this story will be awesome regardless of what direction we take it ). However, I personally am not in favor of the idea for the following reason: - This would push us towards category #1, a 'save-the-world' type story [see my post in Characters and Plot regarding my three categories of story]. If we're going to do a 'save-the-world' type story, then I like this idea a lot. However, as I mentioned, I'm favoring more of a 'politics-and-dark-alleys' type story. If the mists are now threatening the world, then all other concerns drop away as people of all backgrounds and ambitions are drawn together in a common goal: stop whoever is driving the mists. It draws lines and makes it more of an us vs him, or him vs the world type conflict. This is in large part why I was wanting some consensus as to what type of story we're shooting for. Because I sense that Joel and I are butting heads here. I like the idea of the mists changing their behavior and becoming more sinister, but not if it means that we have to have one big, overarching villain that's going to eclipse everyone else with regard to his threat-value [we need a main villain for the story, but I am pushing for the type of main villain who not everyone will agree needs to be stopped] However, so as not to come empty handed, I'm going to bring my own sample solution to the table to try and reconcile the differences as much as possible (though I believe that a perfect reconciliation is impossible; so I make no claims to having attempted it. This is unashamedly a type 2 story, and if we decide we want a type 1, them I'm all for reverting to Joel's posted idea). The world has, since the beginning of time, had mists atop the oceans (see? It's just like yours! That must make it a compromise, right? ;D). We've moved into an industrial revolution of sorts, where the magic energy is being used to fund an age of exploration, industry, enlightenment, and, to a lesser extent, technology. Sort of like the entire 1600's to 1800's rolled into one. In the present day, we have a number of political factors at play; a power struggle like I suggested before, the discovery of a new race with comparable, or superior, technology (perhaps living on an island almost completely covered by mist?), inland nations banding together and trying to levy for rights to use the rivers to access the oceans and cash in on this prosperity, and a bunch of other things we can come up with. In the middle of it, some powerful figure develops some additional way of harvesting energy, or possibly some powerful weapon that utilizes the energy. In any event, the development and use of this thingumy has side-effects, and the mists start being polluted. We get 'spots' of blighted mist that move around, fade away, generate seemingly at random, and generally behave unpredictably. These 'spots' would correspond to Blood's 'blight'. Most people in the world would be entirely ignorant of the blight. It comes and goes, and the 'spots' are rare. However, down at the docks, amongst the smugglers and fishermen, rumors are spreading, and the mists are slowly becoming a source of fear. The 'educated' don't believe the rumors, but as the story progresses, we'll have more and more evidence turn up of what's occurring (and we could have some really creepy stuff happen to; like coming upon a ship where everyone on board is dead, with blood coming out of their ears and nose and eyes; the main character could look on horrified and exclaim 'what happened?', to which a dour old sailor can reply 'Bad mist', and go about his business). This would give us a very flesh-and-blood villain to face, but he wouldn't be of such dire power that everyone would be compelled to acknowledge the threat. In fact, some factions could be trying to steal the weapon/harvesting technique and use it themselves! After all, what are a few destroyed coastal villages? A few mutated sailors? A few--monsters from the darkness? We could bring in as many factions as we liked, and generally create one enormous, bloody, beautiful mess of shifting power and alliances. Like I said, this story can be awesome wherever we go with it. Be it save the world, science fiction, social commentary, or a political power struggle. I just want to be clear on what everyone wants so that I can direct my thoughts so they don't keep banging in to other people's. Thoughts?
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Bought In Blood
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Post by Bought In Blood on Feb 15, 2013 0:52:08 GMT -5
I’m back with two more cents to give.
As far as I know, we are all Christian writers here so the question isn’t whether Christianity is an element or not. The question is how do we choose to implement Christianity into our stories? I lean more towards Randy’s side of things where the evidence of an all powerful, sovereign God is enough for me to consider a work as Christian. But this isn’t my story, so by all means write it however you like. As long as God is glorified, I am totally happy.
I am also skeptical towards the idea of implementing a pantheon unless it’s kept ambiguous, or it is later revealed that most of (if not all) the pantheon gods are actually some other beings that have been masquerading as gods. I like the idea of a being that feeds on prayer and worship to get supernatural (read: god-like) powers.
@randy- HOW DARE YOU DISMISS MY IDEAS!! Just kidding, I understand that the whole magitech thing is a little out of tune with what your vision for the story is. Hopefully the other concepts I brought to the table are helpful towards the world-building process in some way. Honestly, I’m just hoping to get the creative juices flowing even if the end product has none of my concepts in it.
Personally, I am in favor of a more character centered story rather than a save-the-world story for, pretty much all the reasons that Randy provided. Since I am just a minor participant rather than a coauthor, just look upon my input as a potential reader rather than a creator. I just feel that a save-the-planet/world/universe story is: a) very hard to pull off effectively; b) way overdone and overrated; and c) takes the focus away from your characters (which are the most important element of any story!).
That’s my two cents. Any thoughts?
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rjj7
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Post by rjj7 on Feb 15, 2013 10:42:05 GMT -5
Don't be so quick to say that magitech is out of tune with the vision for the story. It's out of tune with my personal visions, but I'm only a small part of the whole (if one measures by headcount, as opposed to longwindedness). In the original poll thread, a lot of votes were cast for a mixture of genres, so perhaps we'll end up shifting more in that direction.
And thank you for the thoughts, Blood and myrthman. Even if it's not adapted into the final product, I personally love having input from other members of the Anomaly.
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Bought In Blood
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Post by Bought In Blood on Feb 15, 2013 12:58:32 GMT -5
@randy- I am always glad to give my input. However, I will say that I am not a big fan of doomsday weapons. Evil magic, or even powerful weapons are ok by me, but I don't like the 'hyper-death-ray' spell/machine that will end the world if the good guys don't stop the bad guys in time, but that's just my opinion. @everyone else- To keep the discussion rolling, what does everyone think of the following: I can post more questions later. In the meantime, any thoughts on the above questions? Feel free to number your answers to correspond to the appropriate question.
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Joel P.
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Post by Joel P. on Feb 15, 2013 15:05:56 GMT -5
As usual, Randy, you've raised quite a few good points (most of which I agree with.) Personally, I am not opposed to a pantheon so long as A) they're not a replacement for God and B) we find out about the one true God somewhere in the story. For instance, I thought up this pantheon, which seems to fit with a Vestrateni (Vestratenian? Vestratenite?) mentality: Four 'deities' which are embodiments of concepts: The Warrior, The Philosopher, The Traveler, and The Watcher; and the current reigning monarch as the head 'deity' of the bunch. I'm still up in the air on the magic crystals idea. Let's see where it takes us. I would like to quibble with you about the 'save the world' vis-a-vis the 'political backstabby' story. In essence, I don't see the two as being mutually exclusive. Who's to say the mists aren't doing what I described (starting to reproduce and replace the old mist way down near the surface of the ocean) while still acting the way you described, due to interference? Honestly, I do like your idea. The point I'm trying to make is, even with my old idea, we'd be sure to run into factions who would want to use the mist's change and new features to their own gain with nary a thought for the rest of the world. Bought's points: [1] Well, I covered that above. [2] I like villains you can kill (I'm old-fashioned that way ), but I think they can also be strongly influenced by the Enemy [3] I prefer S&S with a definite progression toward technology. I don't know what tech level Vestraten will be at, but I know the one 'background' country I'm working on has gunpowder and cannons. [4] Both! [5] Both!
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rjj7
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Post by rjj7 on Feb 15, 2013 15:30:51 GMT -5
Well, write me in as dubious that it can be done. I honestly don't see how we can have a compelling political fight when in the background, the destruction of the entire world is looming. We could have a number of people a) deny that the danger is real, b) go ahead regardless of the danger, somehow convincing themselves that they'll be able to overcome it eventually, once the current conflict is over, or c) actively try to aid the destruction of the world through bitterness/insanity/whatever. But in the end, every person not trying to end the threat to the world would end up with an alignment of Stupid-Evil (the big-bad excepted, of course). I guess that I misspoke somewhat. The point isn't that we wouldn't be able to have factions and whatnot with the mists destroying the world, it would be that it would be difficult to impossible to get the reader to invest emotionally in any political crisis when the end of the world is on our doorstep. Such a political crisis would end up serving as little more than the context for the real threat. And while I agree that it could be a very good context, I am simply registering the opinion that it should be the focus. The difference between a Type 2 story with a dash of Type 1 and a Type 1 story with a dash of Type 2, if you see what I mean. I also think there's the risk that the reader can feel cheated; if we open with an interesting political fight, and later it turns out that the real threat is world-wide, the reader can be left with the feeling that nothing that's happened up to this point really matters in the grand scheme of things. I had the sensation with the Mistborn trilogy by Brandon Sanderson. The first book was great, but at the end of the second, it was revealed that actually, nothing that's happened up to now had any real bearing on anything. The awesomeness that was book 1 was sensibly diminished, leaving me sad and frustrated that what had opened so promisingly was actually just killing time for the big reveal (and no, there was no bias in my evaluation of the story. Why do you ask? ) And so, it comes time to pull out my weapon of last resort. I've beat heads with a few other aspiring authors over how they should handle their stories (why won't everyone just write their stories the way I want them to? ), and have developed a few techniques for beating down stubborn defense (beyond continual repetition, which I'm already trying ). That is, to split the story. We can write a political-back-alley-slug-fest for now, and hold the mists replacing water card up our sleeves in reserve for another story set in Vestraten. The reason this is a weapon of last resort: Joel: "Good idea. We'll write our story with mist-replacing-water and worry about a less cataclysmic plot for the sequel" Me:
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Joel P.
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Post by Joel P. on Feb 15, 2013 17:06:14 GMT -5
Come come, my good fellow, I'm not so cruel as all that! Mostly...
How about this? The backstabby political-ness somehow LEADS to the cataclysmic consequences, and continues as one of the obstacles our heroes have to negotiate their way around. That way, we all get what we want.
I noticed that, but I liked the Mistborn trilogy anyway. And The Alloy of Law. And The Way of Kings. And...you get the idea.
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rjj7
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Post by rjj7 on Feb 15, 2013 18:42:41 GMT -5
Hm, so something like this:
1. Big political fallout/mess, similar to what's been advocated by RJ&Co. 2. As the initial chaos starts settling, rather than one faction emerging dominant, the conflicts are stagnating; everyone was anticipating a rapid coup, but now the few folks who are still alive are starting to be afraid that we're looking at a fractured and divided country, which will leave everyone open to invasion from the north, and no one wants that. So-- 3. One of the parties ends up swinging a deal with some dark cult of ancient and evil magic (EDIT: Or some scientist-mage who has [supposedly] been neutral up to this point [mwahaha]). Something nature-worshipy, or something. If we wanted to, we could have this deal have a Saul-going-to-the-witch type vibe. A deal with the devil, instigated because people are scared and don't know what's coming. 4. The problems up till now are nothing compared to the problems that start developing. Whereas before, the mists were merely having outbreaks of blight and munching a few ships and coastal villages over here, loosing a few mutated werefish on the populace over there, now they're suddenly thickening and moving in to cover the land. The nature-cult are thrilled, as this is somehow seen as humanity-finally-embracing-their-connection-with-nature-via-the-mists (never mind the fact that the mists are now eating people and stuff; that must just be nature purifying the race, or something). 5. Our heroes and whatever associated resources are now trying to step into the ensuing panic and give everyone focus, leadership, and direction. Unification of all levels of society, and all that.
Obviously, it doesn't have to be exactly like all that, but is that something like what you're thinking of?
P.S. I just can't get past the fact that B. Sanderson essentially spent two entire books doing nothing more than setting the scene. I want to like the Trilogy, and I genuinely do like the first book a lot, and I complement him on how he was able to wrap everything up in the last book (it wasn't perfect, but given the scale of the problem he'd created, I thought it was very good), but I just--gah!
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Bought In Blood
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Post by Bought In Blood on Feb 15, 2013 20:14:50 GMT -5
I like what Randy has thrown together. However, I really do not like the cataclysmic business because, unless it's handled exceptionally well, the mists devouring the oceans idea has some pretty glaring flaws. [/url] flashbacks) [2] The problem isn’t really that scary. (You could make it scary, but readers are tough to convince) [3] The problem doesn’t demand a speedy solution or put our heroes into a race against time. (Since there are about 36,614,237,300,000,000,000,000 gallons of water in the oceans of real Earth, our heroes have time to kill) [4] There’s no easy solution for the problem. (Unless there’s a MacGuffin involved, in which case the plot will feel really contrived) [5] Who would do this? Why? If someone has the power to drain the oceans, maybe they could try using that power for something a little more… evil? (The only exception would be a capital 'E' Enemy but you already mentioned how you like villains you can kill) [/ul] I apologize if this seems overly harsh or critical. I just do not see how the ocean drainage plot is all that threatening in the short term and I feel that, as a reader, one would not be very taken in by this development. It would feel anticlimactic after a suspenseful political intrigue, in my humble opinion. If you could answer my questions for me, I'd appreciate you taking the time to explain away my misgivings.
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