Joel P.
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Vertavit on duch Firthos est, cas asheidux on duch shei est.
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Post by Joel P. on Feb 5, 2013 21:08:48 GMT -5
Welcome to this planning thread for the new collab story! It is one of three, each addressing different facets of the world.
This thread addresses the cultures and possible magic systems we'll be having. We already know the culture will be some fusion of European and Japanese facets; we just need to refine our ideas. As far as magic systems, anything goes!
Feel free to contribute to this discussion, but bear in mind that unless you are part of the Vestraten team, you will have no say in the final implementation of any ideas, whether contributed by yourself or another (though opinions will certainly be respected). If you would like to become a member of the Vestraten Collaborative, contact Joel P. This is not intended to be a club or a social status, but rather a subset of Anomalians who happen to be working on a story together.
That said, don't ask to be a member unless you would like to contribute a meaningful amount of work; whether mental or physical. Anyone can contribute ideas, but that's not the same as asking to be listed as co-author on the binding. Current team: Joel P. rjj7 Kessie stormiel
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Post by stormiel on Feb 8, 2013 18:24:17 GMT -5
As far as the Japanese facets, what do you have in mind? I'm not familiar with Japanese culture, mythology and so forth to have any clue where to begin on that.
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Joel P.
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Post by Joel P. on Feb 8, 2013 18:48:09 GMT -5
I was thinking we could make use of the weapons technology (the Japanese had the best swords in the world) as well as the unthinking allegiance to authority which was such an important element of Japanese culture through the second World War. Possibly other bits and pieces, too: Kessie suggested using myths of shapeshifting demons; and I've thought about incorporating the fishing culture which existed along the coasts.
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rjj7
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Post by rjj7 on Feb 11, 2013 11:08:44 GMT -5
Sorry for an extended absence.
If we go with the 'mana-mist' idea in the other thread, then I think that the idea of a fishing culture has great promise. In practical terms, it wouldn't look anything like fishing in the real world. Could you perhaps expound a bit on what specific aspects of the fishing culture you were thinking of? You say 'fishing culture', and beyond the fact that it sustains itself by fishing, I'm entirely clueless as to what that entails.
If we go with the idea of mana-mist, I envision a society where magic is a lot more 'industrial'. We have watermills in the real world to harnass the power of water, windmills for wind, and so by extension, we would have mana-mills all along the coast, and possibly on small islands, to harnass this power. Mages would be more like modern Engineers than ancient Druids. Though perhaps there is an increase in nature-based superstition about the mana? Rogue mages delving more into shamanism, druidism, or voodoo? Does anyone know what sort of magic goes with oriental cultures and mythology?
EDIT: Only using the term 'mana' temporarily.
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Post by Kessie on Feb 12, 2013 0:35:09 GMT -5
That'd be interesting if the world was sort of medieval, and because of the presence of mana was experiencing an industrial revolution. We could have zeppelins filled with mana!
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Post by stormiel on Feb 12, 2013 18:31:52 GMT -5
I like the idea of having the total allegiance to authority. As well as the mana industrial revolution. Zeppelins are awesome (this is kinda making me think medieval steam-punk). Massive battles seemed to be on everyone's wish list from the original post also.
With all of these ideas in mind, what if the leadership in Vestraten was evil and was about to make a massive deal with some sort of evil being or alliance that would in the long run destroy the kingdom? The majority of the people would be completely loyal, not understanding what they were following. And what if Vestraten were invaded by messengers that were trying to show the people that they were following lies and trying to show them the truth before it was too late? That would cause a massive civil war inside the kingdom with neighbor suspicious of neighbor. With Vestraten on in the early stages of an industrial revolution maybe it could make the circumstances right for a rag-tag team of misfits to unhinge the evil leadership about to plunge the kindom into doom.
Just an idea...
That reminds me of another question, what is the Christian aspect of the story going to be?
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rjj7
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Post by rjj7 on Feb 12, 2013 18:57:20 GMT -5
EDIT: Accidentally hit 'post reply' on a single quote mark. Will come up with something a bit more meaningful in a bit. EDIT2: I like the idea of having something secret, going on behind the scenes. Maybe what we can do is have the government in Vestraten be something like England's during the 1600's, with a parliament competing with the more traditional monarchy. Perhaps the king has a bit of the Charles I vibe going, with his belief in the Divine Right of Kings competing with people who want a more progressive form of government. But instead of just being arrogant about it and trying to steamroll the opposition (like Charles I), he recognizes that it's a battle he can't win, and while he's publicly falling in line with progressive ideals and parliamentary rule, he's secretly looking for ways out of the situation. Behind the scenes he is forming a coalition of Royalist supporters and trying to get them into important positions (one of them could even be looked up to as one of the most influential parliamentary supporters ). Eventually, he starts forming ties with an 'alternate' form of magic that involves the pact with an evil being that's somehow tied to the mana-mist. This would allow us to have competing factions amongst people, with some characters being supporters of the king, and others being supporters of the parliament. We could even have a mix of political beliefs amongst our main characters, leading to potential conflict (that could either be serious, or played up for comic relief; however we felt like doing it). We can have the influential parliamentary leaders foolishly trusting the king's public declarations, and be completely unprepared for whatever is going to happen. Then, as stormiel suggested, we could have our rag-tag group of heroes come across something that makes them suspicious that something is going on; maybe they fall in with a foreign embassy that is suspicious and is trying to find things out itself (allowing us to bring in the other nations a bit). From there, they find out what they need to find out and we could go one of two routes. Either they foil it, if we want a simpler, more traditional story, or they try to convince people of what's coming, but are met with blind trust in the king's public declarations in favor of parliamentary rule. This then leads to the King's schemes coming to fruition and stormiel's civil war erupting in full force, dragging the world towards something not very pleasant. I don't know how much the Divine Right of Kings has been done in modern fantasy, so maybe we want to stay away from the idea. However, if we did something like that, we would have to have either Christianity, or some other monotheistic religion present, because DRoK makes no sense without it. I actually don't think that we should strive to have a specifically Christian element in the book. If we get some themes that grow out of the story, that's wonderful, and I think the book would be better for such things, but I'd like to avoid having anything feel forced. What are other people's thoughts?
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rjj7
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Post by rjj7 on Feb 12, 2013 20:16:49 GMT -5
I think we have a conflict of ideas. At least, I perceive it as a conflict, and I will make the case that it is. Firstly, the idea that the mana is being used in an industrial type fashion, first speculated upon by myself, and nicely expanded and articulated by Kessie in this very thread. That'd be interesting if the world was sort of medieval, and because of the presence of mana was experiencing an industrial revolution. We could have zeppelins filled with mana! Secondly, there is Joel's idea in the Ecology and History thread that the mists be something malevolent in creation. Okay, I just thought of this. What if the essence that's basically 'invading' the world is of the Enemy's devising? While the original magic system of the world relied on having a single, specific power (earth, water, atmosphere, botany, mind, and energy are the ones I've thought of so far), the power derived from this essence is much more versatile and farther-reaching in its effects. And it's also considerably more dangerous. The reason that I perceive this as a conflict is because I would like to avoid writing a story that could possibly be interpreted as saying that science is evil. To my mind, we need to either have the mana a neutral source, or we need to eliminate it's use as an industrial/scientific asset (it could still factor prominently into magic, I think, if we make the magic sufficiently 'magicy' without any analogies to an industrial revolution). So what do people think? Shall we go with a neutral mana? Cool industry and a culture that's experiencing it's first technological growing pains? Or shall we go with evil mana? Dark magic and a mysterious and sinister mist encroaching on the world? Or shall we think some more about both and make our decision later? Or am I just blowing things out of proportion, and it's not a big deal? For my part, I'm still trying to weigh the pros and cons of each.
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Joel P.
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Vertavit on duch Firthos est, cas asheidux on duch shei est.
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Post by Joel P. on Feb 12, 2013 21:02:07 GMT -5
Hmm....
Here's an idea - science isn't evil, but artificially accelerated scientific development can be detrimental; and I get the feeling that this is what would be happening.
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Post by myrthman on Feb 12, 2013 23:45:29 GMT -5
Take it or leave it: what if the "mana" has been the norm for generations (all of time?), but now it's somehow becoming less effective (drying up?)? That might facilitate the need for an industrial revolution and a quest: what's happening to the "mana"?
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rjj7
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Post by rjj7 on Feb 13, 2013 0:21:24 GMT -5
Okay, first of all, apologies to everyone for jumping the gun and spamming the boards with directions and commands for discussion direction. At the moment, my brain is swimming, and trying to make sense and order out of the veritable explosion of cool stuff that everyone's thrown into the pot. I think I've decided that with reference to my previous post, I definitely blew things out of proportion. This is definitely reconcilable through several different methods. Lines needn't be drawn yet.
[another note: I started composing this reply before myrthman posted, left it for an hour, then came back. So his suggestion hasn't been incorporated into it; sorry, I don't want to dismiss the idea, and will hopefully address it later]
If everyone will indulge a bit of analysis? Thank you.
Let us assume that the mists are evil. What does that entail? - First of all, it requires that we have some villain behind the mists. This will have to be either a creature from another world, or something essentially immortal. This guy will then have to be the big threat of our story, as anything else would be inconceivable or anticlimactic (it is also possible that the mists themselves could somehow be the villain, but that would be more difficult to pull off) - Secondly, we will have to give thought to the timeline. If we want to have ships capable of sailing on top of the mist (which I do, at any rate, so as to provide contrast with the guys that sail through it), then the mists will have to be a long-standing thing. Several generations at least. - If that is so, then the mists cannot have been advancing at a very rapid rate, or else everyone would be aware of it. If we say that the mists are not advancing, but rather replacing the water (which is vanishing), then we still have the same problem; if that had been going on for a long time, people would have noticed (though in this case, it would be the 'underground' people that would notice). - Therefore, what we need is a long period of time where the mists didn't advance, but now they are. This argues that someone is doing something with the mists that they weren't doing before. This could be either because previously they were unable to do anything, because previously they were unaware they could do anything, or because previously they didn't want to do anything.
But given all of the above, how can we integrate the mists into 'technology' without causing problems? We could have everything that the 'magic' does already be done by normal means. The magic just does it faster, more efficiently, etc. Windmills, watermills, are all being replaced (where possible) by mana mills. The other option is to have the mana simply be 'alien'. It's from another world, and its not meant to be used in this one. A third is that maybe the huge reliance on mana to power technology has led to a huge dearth of innovation inland. Maybe part of the story is that our characters discover that while the mana is making life great for people along the coasts, maybe the landlocked countries are suffering because all 'research' is being done with mana only.
Okay, so we have several options to work with. So here is a (sample) suggestion, that attempts to compile and put together all the great stuff that everyone's suggested. There is a big, deadly, inter-universal essence that makes a habit of entering universes and devouring them. It doesn't belong to any world in particular, and spends its time trying to break into more. Well, a long time ago, some powerful magicians fled a mist-consumed world by opening a portal between the worlds. As they came through, a bunch of mist seeped through the hole they left. It wasn't much; and sort of like rubber, the hole closed on its own after they were finished. The consciousness that drives the mist (lives in it? is cloaked by it?) wasn't even aware of the holes. The wizards were responsible for bringing the mist-being into their dead world, so they all agreed to abandon their magic, write meticulous records of what happened so that others wouldn't repeat their mistake, and set about trying to live normal lives. But now, thousands of years later in the present day, someone has unintentionally made contact with the mist-being through the residual holes in the wall between the worlds. They think they are dealing with something they can control, not realizing that they are dealing with something that consumes worlds. The poor fool ends up making a deal with the mist-consciousness, and then sets about 'wielding' the mist's power, and unknowingly widening the cracks so that the mist-being can actually enter our world (as at the moment, what we have is the non-sentient variety of mist; like a scrap torn off of someone's coat).
Some problems with that idea are: - Our big villain is locked out of the world, and everyone in the 'real world' is a fool messing with things he doesn't understand. This could lead to the problem of not having a villain that the reader can respect. - The whole 'discover lost knowledge' quest can lead to long, boring stories where until we discover the knowledge, we wander around doing random stuff and after we discover the hidden knowledge, we realize that none of what we did prior matters in the slightest bit (I kind of dislike this type of story; though this problem could be mitigated by having the final solution be: stop the 'real world' villain by removing him from power, as opposed to 'stop the mist'; this would render all prior actions still relevant).
I was going to follow this up with a long thought process of how we could have the mists be neutral, and what a story like that would look like, but I got caught up with the previous train, and don't have any more time. After I saw myrthman's post, I also wanted to create an idea where the mana was 'good', or at least a very desirable neutral force. But, I don't have time for that either. Maybe tomorrow or the next day I'll get round to it, if someone else hasn't taken a whack at it by then. In the meantime, this wasn't intended to be a solidified story idea, but it ended up more detailed than I originally intended. Take it, break it, stomp on the pieces, then look at all the pretty glitter it leaves behind.
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Post by Kessie on Feb 13, 2013 0:23:24 GMT -5
I don't think it should be evil. If it is, then where does the other kind of magic come from? And is it evil? And before you know it, we're writing the standard Christian OMG MAGIC IS FROM SATAN! trope.
If the mana is neutral, that opens up a lot more possibilities we could play with. There's also the idea that the mana welling up in different areas (like the inland sea) is actually more conducive to healing, the ocean more conducive to arcane, the rivers more conducive to fire/lightning, and so on. But expand or limit that idea as you like. It just gives more scope toward building the factions who use it.
The idea of a Big Bad orchestrating this is always fun, but I like things to be slightly more ambiguous. What if the mana is actually being drawn off a dying world, and the inhabitants of that world are fleeing into Vest? It'd be an excuse to have monsters that aren't necessarily evil--only starving. Therefore closing the rifts between the worlds is actually sentencing an entire planet to death. (Moral quandaries!)
Or what if dragons have crept through the world rifts, and they exhale mana the way everything else exhales carbon dioxide?
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Post by Kessie on Feb 13, 2013 0:27:50 GMT -5
RJJ: The idea of the mana being is really good, and I'd say go for it--if it wasn't the exact same plot as The Magic Thief trilogy, by Sarah Prineas. And it was fantastic. But we'd be doing the exact same thing, and I mean EXACT, all the way down to the predatory mist eating people.
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Post by myrthman on Feb 13, 2013 9:49:14 GMT -5
Another idea: the original neutral mist is being supplanted by another mist that is more volatile or has different properties resulting in different kinds of magic. The "industrial" revolution is more a shift from different predominant magics than it is from farming to factories (as in real history). The old order is grappling to hang on to power (literally and authoritatively) while the world's upstart magicians are experiencing and experimenting with phenomenal new "technologies" that the world has never seen.
Partially inspired by an episode of ST: Enterprise I watched last night in which a rogue faction of Vulcans has decided to balance logic with emotions. T'Pol resists the new way, plays with it a little, and ultimately decides the old way is better.
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Post by Kessie on Feb 13, 2013 14:12:19 GMT -5
Myrth: I suppose that'd work, but it'd get really complicated really fast. Do you want to tell a story about warring political factions (Pern), or a story about a few misfit adventurers trying to save the world (Lord of the Rings)?
Warring political factions are fun and all, but by having two kinds of magic, we dilute the excitement of the mist-oceans. Instead of "whoa look magic comes from this weird mist stuff that's taking the place of our water supply" it's like, "So, do we want to use red or blue mist today?" And it becomes Wheel of Time.
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