Vampires and other physiological monsters

[torainfor]

Elves in LOtR?

[mongoose]

I could see that, sort of, though I think most of their religion was like that of the Druids; elemental magic, perhaps with a vague acknowledgment of the pre-eminence of the Valar, Manwe, and (forgets the name) their godhead. I saw very little direct worship of or prayer to any of them in the LotR, however. I saw plenty of magic that had to do with the elements and the trees and animals and such. It was cool, given the fact that it was a different universe Tolkien created, not a direct allegory, and he wasn't preachy about it. But I didn't really consider the elves to be analogous to Christians. Still, they were "good" creatures, and uber-powerful. Thanks. Any others?

[Divides the Waters]

The Apostle John makes an immortal, modern-day appearance in Marzulli's Nephilim trilogy.

[wilsonwriter]

I'm not sure how we got onto Tolkien in this section, but it still surprises me how few are familiar with some of the basis for his world-building. We argue instead of going to the source.

For some great insights into LotR, read The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien. He addresses readers questions about the wizards, the elves, and so on. His Christological worldview is very apparent, and the books become much deeper.

[Divides the Waters]

I think we got onto Tolkien by asking if there were any examples of "Christian" immortals.

I don't know if it counts, but I do have an immortal, Melchizedek-like character in my second novel. It (no gender) is called The Oracle, and steps out only when the messiah character steps in.

[mongoose]

Divides, have you published this, that I might give you money for it? Likewise any of the rest of you. What web-sites would you prefer that I go to in order to buy your materials from you, such that you get more of the money than you would otherwise?

[Divides the Waters]

Not yet, Mongoose, but you just made my day by asking. I'll sure let you know the moment it's available.

[mongoose]

Likewise with mine. I'm surprised if there isn't a topic or thread somewhere on this board, just for that.

On another thought, I noticed that we can't keep our genres straight. Here we are in the Vamps, demons, end times topic, speaking of Tolkien. There we are in the Fantasy topic, speaking of Stargate. Or is that all just my fault? *grins*

[Divides the Waters]

You do know how to derail a train of thought.

[mongoose]

This is kind of random and not very cerebral, but I have time to spend! *grins* Life is good.

Anyway, Riddick was pretty cool. Not Christian, by any means, and not even immortal, but he was pretty powerful and went up against someone who was, shall we say, demonic?

So, I know I asked this before, but what if he WERE Christian? Specifically, what happens when someone like that bad guy tries to steal a Christian's soul? Obviously he wouldn't succeed, as we're already bought and payed for by the blood of the lamb. So how would that look on screen?

And secondly, we've stated, though I know some disagree, that if Riddick were a Christian, or if he converted at some point to Christianity, he wouldn't fight. But he wouldn't just let his pseudo-adopted-daughter be taken into captivity by the enemy, either, I don't think. So what might he have done?

I look at history, or what little I know of it, and ask for information about the rest. I've heard that though Christians in the first century did not serve in the Roman military, for various reasons, some were pressed into service as gladiators. How did they react? Anyone know the history of it?

[Divides the Waters]

It is true that most Christians in the first century were pacifists. But while quite a few of Christ's militant-sounding statements may be taken as figurative, Luke 22:36 makes it clear to me that he does not condone allowing ourselves to be walked over. There's a difference between "turning the other cheek" to an insult, and turning our backs to an enemy.

[kouter]

May 16, 2008 18:22:16 GMT -5 mongoose said:

This is kind of random and not very cerebral, but I have time to spend! *grins* Life is good.

Anyway, Riddick was pretty cool. Not Christian, by any means, and not even immortal, but he was pretty powerful and went up against someone who was, shall we say, demonic?

So, I know I asked this before, but what if he WERE Christian? Specifically, what happens when someone like that bad guy tries to steal a Christian's soul? Obviously he wouldn't succeed, as we're already bought and payed for by the blood of the lamb. So how would that look on screen?

And secondly, we've stated, though I know some disagree, that if Riddick were a Christian, or if he converted at some point to Christianity, he wouldn't fight. But he wouldn't just let his pseudo-adopted-daughter be taken into captivity by the enemy, either, I don't think. So what might he have done?

I look at history, or what little I know of it, and ask for information about the rest. I've heard that though Christians in the first century did not serve in the Roman military, for various reasons, some were pressed into service as gladiators. How did they react? Anyone know the history of it?

This is the same theme I am exploring in my second book. If Christianity is confornted with an enemy how do we react? Even as I write I don't have the answer but I'm looking at it from all sides. Unfortuanately I think this is a question Christians will have to ask themselves (Christians in the West primarily) sooner than later. As the shadow of Islam begins to grow, I think Christians will be put to the test.

[mongoose]

This isn't the forum for a protracted discussion of how we should deal with persecution, and the role of pacifism, or how to follow Christ's teachings from the sermon on the mount, etc. That would be the righteousness thread in the learned disputations topic. I set that thread up for that very purpose.

But for now, if you look at everything in the New Testament about responding to offence, be it physical or verbal or otherwise, it becomes VERY clear. Any debate I've heard has been from a mental, logical, self preservation, fleshly perspective, and did not have new testament, in context, face value interpretation back up. Such may exist, and may be listed in the learned disputations topic by someone who has found them, but to date no one has shown them to me.

The result: No, we aren't to be "walked all over" but we aren't to harm anyone else in any way, either, be it physical, mental, emotional, verbal, whatever. We are to love them all, and love requires vulnerability and willingness to suffer for the sake of the loved. We are to follow Jesus' example.

I'll only give one example of many here. "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth." Meek, in this context, refers to a reed that is stepped on and springs back upright as soon as the weight has passed, none the worse for wear! Amazing quality to have, and very much one that would glorify our Lord, as we look to Him for our peace and joy in the midst of trial rather than trying to stand straight and tall in our own logic or physique or whatever. I know this to be the case from personal experience as well, and it's one of the primary ways that I'm leading my boss toward Christ. He's a "good person," but a Universalist of sorts, who saw the hypocracy of those who claim to follow Christ, but are bombastic, militaristic, or just aggressive about it (whereas Jesus and His followers were not). When he saw that I don't just preach pacifism, and following Christ, but that I really practice it being convicted that it's what He wants, my boss was impressed that here's an example of a way that he could be more Godly. He may not be saved yet, but I have a way in. Without that opening, the gospel could never be preached to him effectively. And besides, getting beat up doesn't hurt, not really. Getting insulted? We recover, especially when knowing how much God values us. And when we put our trust in Him as our defender, and let Him do a better job of it than we ever could, we find there's no need for us to defend ourselves.

So for our stories and our lives, I thought Jeff Gherke's non-lethal weapons was one plausible approach, though I appreciated his main characters' resistance to the concept. Who wants to rush into the line of live and lethal fire, carrying only non-lethals? But it worked for them. Ti Chi, if I were to fight, would be the martial art I would have to use, or perhaps Judo, as they are the more defensive arts that are not meant so much to harm the opponent. I could see a character like Riddic, or Maximus from the movie Gladiator, using their combat skills to defend themselves without really fighting back, and effectively making the point that obedience to their master was more important to them than defending their mortal bodies.

It could work, too. In one of his movies, Jacki Chan commits an offense against another martial artist, and the penalty is that he has to allow the other to attack him ten times, without fighting back (I forget the actual words of the rules). Ten times the other attacked, and Jacki either dodged, blocked, or deflected, without striking back. The attacker ran himself ragged before Jacki was released to fight back. Likewise the old martial arts instructor in the Karate Kid - Next Generation movie (maybe a bad movie, but a cool scene). The football coach/martial arts instructor attacks him, and he doesn't use the power blocks or strikes of Karate for a while. He just keeps stepping aside and deflecting the attack, until he puts some kind of a wrist lock or something on the guy, and threatens to "put his lights out."

Now, God may or may not have called you to pacifism, just as he may or may not have called you to give 20% of your income to the church per month, or to minister 20 hours a week, or to never say an expletive (some things he's called me to). But His Word says what it says, and that, I figure, would be our ultimate goal. And then, our characters can have more of a commitment than we do, and I maintain that it'll be cool to see how a pacifist with excellent martial arts skills, who is committed to obeying the teachings of the Bible, would react to being attacked.

In my story, my guy is somewhat weak, spiritually, having only just given his heart to Christ and begun to learn his ways. Like the character in Jeff's book, he decides he can't hurt or kill people any more, but he's a distinct minority in a military prison. People attack him. He does the Ti Chi thing effectively for a while, but numbers overwhelm him, and he ends up in medical isolation with bruised and broken bones and other more minor injuries. But that's okay, because he'll recover, and he gets to spend that time with God, in the Word, prayer, and worship. Eventually, however, he's presented with sufficient motive and opportunity to escape, and his few friends convince him that he's going to have to be in good physical shape when the time comes, which means he'll have to defend himself. He does so, and it works, by the grace of God.

But I like how Karen Hancock dealt with it in her book "Arena" (note that Karen disagrees with me on this issue. We've e-mailed back and forth about it.) There's a scene in "Arena" in which the main character executes this very cool procedure to defend and take care of himself and the female lead. It would look awesome on film. But throughout the book God has been trying to teach them to trust in Him, taking them by degrees to complete dependence upon His providence. Immediately the lead male is convicted of his sin in trying to fix it himself, and repents, and God comes through for them anyway. The point was effectively made that, although this guy was all strong and fast and smart and able to take care of them, to some extent, God was more able, and showed His glory more effectively when His servants were weak, or otherwise did not try to take care of themselves against the physical enemy.

Dekker, likewise, usually has his characters (this has become a trend or something with him) be able to fight well and take care of themselves, but end up vanquishing the foe by allowing the foe to have their way. Sometimes they die. Sometimes they call on God. Sometimes they look into the foe's eyes, and the foe can't tolerate the goodness there, and is blown away. But I have only read one Dekker book in which the good guy won by being stronger, faster, or otherwise the better fighter, and it may have been his worst book to date.

So there's a precedent for pacifism for the sake of Christ (not to be confused with pasivism), not only in the Gospels, in Acts, and in the Epistles, but also throughout the history of many of the Catholic "Saints" (if not all of them) in my own personal experience, and in speculative fiction by Christian authors. I guess I answered my own questions there. heh.

[mongoose]

I'm now reading Sue Dent's Forever Ceese, about a vampire and a warewolf and their efforts to become "free from their curse." Thank you, Jeff, for the recommendation. When I did a Google search, she was one of three authors who came up a few times as writing Christian vampire stories. Dekker was another one with the last of his young adult novels in the "Lost Books" series. I haven't read that one yet.

Sue Dent's book strikes me as oriented toward young adults or mature youth. It's easy reading in terms of the vocabulary, sentence length, amount of internal processing by the characters vs. action, etc. I don't know if that's actually her target audience, but it is definitely easier to read than, say, Anne Rice. She dealt with a rape scene in an interesting way, no doubt to avoid offending Christian or younger readers. Then she sort of abandons that character, though there's indications she might come back later on. A hint of suspense. It's definitely a Christian novel, with constant references to the difficulty the two "cursed" characters have with the Scriptures, crosses, and other holy things. So I'll keep reading and think myself better for it.

[metalikhan]

Probably late on adding anything to this thread, but years ago there was a series about a family of vampires that were actually descendents of an alien race. They were mortal but with incredible longevity. In some respects, they were quite fragile; for example, childbirth killed the mother. They also could not turn just anyone into another vampire; only people born of their bloodline could complete the transformation into another vampire.

Several of the traditional myths did not apply although the author shows/suggests how the myths grew through the centuries. I think the author was Elaine Bergstrom; a couple of the titles were Blood Alone (set in WWII) and Shattered Glass (contemporary setting). I don't recall the novels being specifically Christian although there was the occasional passage that made me wonder. I actually liked her series better than Ann Rice's because (if my memory is partially functioning) I like her writing style better.