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Post by mongoose on May 10, 2008 23:18:22 GMT -5
Or holiness, or a life of faith, or a life of worship, or entire sanctification, or purity.
Question: What's the ultimate objective in this thing we do, or are; "being Christian." What does it look like? What are some things we would do, but don't (being human and fallible) if we were the ultimate Christians, if we reached our goals as Christians? Can you describe someone who you think came close, or who you use as a role model? Do you identify with one of the followers of Christ in the Bible, and if so, how did he/she live?
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Post by The Blue Collared Philosopher on May 11, 2008 16:43:22 GMT -5
The ultimate objective in this thing we do, or are; "being Christian." Um, well some would say that our objective is to tell everyone about Christ. Other say it's to make everyone a Christian.
I disagree, i think a Christian's ultimate objective is bring honor, glory, and praise to God. That is why he created us in the first place and we are still created for that purpose. THEN we should tell the world about Christ.
What does it look like? It looks like searching for God no matter what you are doing, where you are, or what your going through. It looks like utter obediance all of the time.
What are some things we would do, but don't (being human and fallible) if we were the ultimate Christians, if we reached our goals as Christians? We would do and act exactly like Jesus did before us. Whatever he did, that is what we would do.
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Post by mongoose on May 11, 2008 23:20:25 GMT -5
I like your response, Gredruin. I'm also interested in some specific applications of the concept. What are some things that people who frequent this message board do, or would like to do, that are what Jesus did before us? Which of those things make us distinct from all the other people in the world who are trying to be good people, but who are not believers?
To throw one of mine out there, for instance, Jesus says to let your yes be yes and your no be no, and that anything beyond these is of the devil. So I try to cut all expletives from my speech. Not only to I not use "rated R" curse words, but I try to avoid even thinking them. I try to avoid even using substitutes for them. I simply state what I mean to communicate, attempting to use words that mean what I'm attempting to communicate, and leaving out all the rest. No "shute," no "heck," no "Oh, man," nothing, unless I'm talking about one of these things or about one of the things to which the given word refers. And then, if I AM going to refer to one of these things, I choose to use the actual word therefore e.g. "feces," "hell," or . . . Yeah, "man," if I am talking about a man. Otherwise, I won't use any filler word. I'll just say, "I'm frustrated," or "that's wrong," or "I wish that wouldn't happen," or "argh!"
I believe that's one way in which God has called me to be holy, to live in the world but not to be of it, to set myself apart for His service. What specific behavior differences has He called y'all to?
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Post by rwley on May 14, 2008 13:53:49 GMT -5
The call to righteousness is a call to be different. As I have matured, hopefully, in my Christian walk, some of the specific behaviors I've been called to change are my writing and reading tastes. What I started out writing thirty years ago is not what I write now. Much of what I read thirty years ago I will not read now. And what I do read, I read with a different eye.
One of the things I tell the girls in my Sunday school class (I teach high school girls) is that God demands we be different than the rest of the world. We are to act, talk, dress, be so different that the world wants to know why? It's hard. It demands that we make hard choices and often unpopular choices as far as our friends are concerned. We may even have to change friendships.
Righteousness is not easy. It is necessary. Fortunately, we don't have to rely on our own strength to accomplish it. Christ is already righteous. We are rightweous because He lives through us. He is our righteousness. Hallelujah I don't have to do this alone!!!
The more I learn to depend on Him, the more I learn that some of my actions just won't fly. Mongoose, I know what you're saying about the language thing. While I have quit the obvious expletives, I used to be really bad, I still have a few phrases that pop out. "Fiddlesticks" is my most common use when something goes wrong or I get frustrated.
I'm still growing. Aren't we all?
Robi
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Post by The Blue Collared Philosopher on May 15, 2008 7:17:29 GMT -5
Hm, those are good questions mongoose. Well, there is one attribute that Jesus really exhibited-love. Most people don't start out in a default position of love, and even "good people" don't start there. So i think that is an attribute that could really set believers apart from the world. In fact, there is a book called The Mark of a Christian by Francis Shaffer (I'm not sure how to spell his last name, but it is pronounced, Sha fer.) And he talks about how the world will recongize believers by (1) how they love other believers. (2) how we love non-believers. And, you know, i thought that really just hit home on how we should act. Didn't Jesus say that the two greatest commands were to first love God with all your heart, mind, and soul, then love others likewise? So, i think if we love each other and care for each other with a passion like Jesus, we would set ourselves apart from "good people."
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Post by Spokane Flyboy on May 17, 2008 14:31:47 GMT -5
My personal take on this is simple, and it is Jesus' answer when asked what the greatest commandment was. My church boils it down to their little catch phrase "Loving God, Loving People".
"Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: 'Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?'
Jesus replied: ' "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: "Love your neighbor as yourself." All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.'"
That is my personally feeling on the ultimate objective.
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Post by mongoose on May 17, 2008 14:56:27 GMT -5
So we agree that loving people and loving God are the highest callings, the greatest commandments, and the ultimate objectives of being Christians.
What does that look like in your life? How do you love God? How do you love people? What should you do to love God? What should you do to love people?
I want to bring this, if I can, to practicalities. In situation X, God tells us to react in way 1, because we love the person. I haven't determined all the answers in my mind, though I have some very definite leanings on them, and so I want to see what other followers of Christ think about these specific behaviors, attitudes, words, thoughts, and feelings.
Thanks for the responses about manner of dress, kinds of music listened to and movies watched, material read and written, etc. Those are the sorts of things I'm asking about. I'm aware that some might refer to this as legalism, so help me out: What do we do to be righteous, to Love, without being legalistic about it?
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Post by Spokane Flyboy on May 17, 2008 16:28:04 GMT -5
Honestly, I believe it depends on the person. I don't believe there is a magic set of rules outside of the ten commandments that one could follow; in fact, there isn't one anyone can follow. We had the law and all it did was condemn us. I believe it comes down to what God moves you to do in your life. Music has to do with what effects you. I know if I listen to any kind of rock while driving, secular or Christian, I tend to drive aggressively so I personally turn to more mellow music in the car. This comes down to what Paul spoke of in Romans in the matter of food sacrificed to idols.
"Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food. All food is clean, but it is wrong for a man to eat anything that causes someone else to stumble. It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother to fall.
So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the man who does not condemn himself by what he approves." - Romans 14:20-22 (NIV)
This is the heart of most righteous, loving decisions. If the way you dress - especially girls - causes another to think lustful thoughts, then you are causing them to stumble. If your drinking of alcohol around a recovering alcoholic raises the desire for him to slide back into drunkeness, then you are causing them to stumble. The whole of Romans chapter 14 sets up this context of this as it talks about the strong and the weak in Christ. Paul says, "Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand." - Romans 4:1-4
We are to lift each other up and spur each other on toward God. So if by your actions, though they may not be sinful because of your strong faith, you cause a bother with weaker faith to stray, then you've done him a disservice. Think of it like you being an expert kayaker taking your buddy who's just learning down a class 4 rapids. Or more directly, him seeing you do it and he says to himself, "Well if he can, then why can't I?"
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Post by rwley on May 19, 2008 12:18:24 GMT -5
I agree with Flyboy. I just want to add this; the best way we can show we love God is to be obedient. What does that entail? It will depend on the individual. What has He called you to do? Are you doing it?
How do you love people? By not being judgmental or vindictive. The 'turn the other cheek" passage does not allude to an attack but to an insult. We are to love and forgive no matter the circumstances; very difficult as I can personally attest to.
If we show our love of God by being obedient, the love of people will come naturally out of that obedience. Drawing closer to God brings about a greater love of other people without additional effort. It is a part of who God is, therefore it will become a part of who you are as you draw closer to Him. Simple cause and effect.
None of this is really easy, though, so I go back to my earlier post. WE cannot do this in and of ourselves. We must allow Jesus to live through us because He is the only one capable of living this thing called Christianity. Simple to say; difficult to practice.
Something I learned a long time ago and am still learning on a daily basis. Obedience is a deliberate choice. I must choose daily, sometimes hourly, to do what is right in God's opinion, not mine. I must willfully choose to follow His commands and not my feelings. Even if my feelings don't match those commands. Especially then. Obedience has nothing to do with feelings. I have also learned that if I choose obedience, the feelings will sometimes follow, but not always. I still have to choose obedience. The more I choose to obey, the easier it becomes when the hard choices happen. And the more I obey, the closer I get to God and the more my love for Him pours out on others.
I don't know if that's really what you're looking for Mongoose, but that's my heart. I'm actually working on the beginnings of a book called "Deliberate Obedience" and some of these concepts are part of that. We'll see if God leads me forward with it.
Robi
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Post by mongoose on May 20, 2008 0:08:19 GMT -5
I find that, although I will disagree with most people about something they say, I'm really appreciating what's being said here. Especialy your bit about obedience Rwley. I believe that's one of the distinctives of Christianity, in answer to my original question. How can you obey a false god? We have a God who tells us quite clearly what to do, unlike any other alleged divine character. Thus, by His power (as you say) we can obey Him. Also as several have said, the main thing He tells us to do is love. And therein lies the rub that I think we're begining to get at here, and need to delve into more fully, whether alone and individually, or together and corporatly.
HOW do we love people? How far does that go? Do we love those that insult us, but not those that attack us, as I might infer from your statement regarding "turn the other cheek?" (Incidentally, I disagree with your interpretation of that passage, but that's not the point.) And if we love those that insult us, what do we do when they insult us? And if we love those that attack us, what do we do when they attack us? I ask these things not as rhetorical questions, or just to provoke critical self analysis, though it would be great if those things happened. I ask them in the hopes that we'll come to conclusions about what God wants us to do in particular situations.
I'll readily grant that God gives each of us different amounts of grace to obey His commands, but they are commands whether or not we have enough grace to fully obey them. We may never be entirely sanctified, but we still work out our salvation day by day with fear and trembling, for it is God's Holy Spirit who is at work in us, to make us into the image of God. So God calls me to use no expletives at all, and gives me the grace to do it, such that I am responsible for every word I say. Maybe He only calls someone else to quit using hard cuss words, if you will, and gives them just enough grace to stop doing so. They still use substitutes, but He doesn't hold that against them because He hasn't given them the grace to stop using expletives all together. That's well and good, but the command to let our yes be yes and our no be no remains. We all, desiring to emulate Jesus to the people around us, should do whatever we can to watch our tongues, yes? Likewise for any other directive God has given us, right?
So God may have called me to stand still and take a physical beating from a physical attacker, while my wife runs, rather than causing any harm to the attacker. He may have called the next person only to avoid killing the attacker, and another only to avoid killing the next person who insults them. But whatever God has called us to individually and personally, there's still the standard that we should all be reaching for as followers of Christ. That standard has truly been said to be the example of Christ, which is Love for all. So how do YOU believe God wants YOU to express that love for those who attack you, or those who insult you, or when you're upset or frustrated, or in any other given situation? If we truly can not state that all Christians are called to the same thing (and it would seem we can not) then let us at least dialog about the range of specific responses that are Christian, rather than non-Christian.
I ask these questions not so much to make a point, as in the hope of provoke each of us, including myself, to give real thought to the ways that we act, think, speak and feel on a moment to moment basis. As we examine these things about ourselves, and judge ourselves critically, we can improve ourselves with God's help. We can truly seek Him with all of our hearts, at which times we will truly find Him. And finding Him, we will be changed from Glory to Glory into His image. And becoming the image of God we will drastically improve our witness to the world, where they will no longer look at us and see hypocrits, and they will no longer look at us and wonder why we think we're special, or how we're any different from the world. Maybe the divorce rate in the church will no longer be on a par with that in the world. Maybe we'll no longer gossip as much as the world. Maybe we'll no longer dress as provocatively as the world. Maybe we'll be kinder to the un-deserving, or more helpful of those in need. I can only propose some possibilities, but I really want to know which of these and other things, other Christians are on the same page as me with. I'm not one to just tell people what to do. I'd much rather provoke people to tell me what they should do, and see if we can then do something together to a greater effect. I hear several times a week about how the Body of Christ isn't. I know most of us here are part of the 20% who do 80% of the work, but I also know even us 20%ers have room to expand and do more. So how do we do it? How do we love when it's difficult to do so? When the world would fail to love, even in their optimistic secular humanism, or their benevolent to all Buddhism, or whatnot?
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Post by rwley on May 20, 2008 11:31:52 GMT -5
How do we love people, specifically? Hmm . . . I guess that actually has as many answers as people who ask the question. So, I will tell you how I love people.
I teach High school Sunday school. I have seven or eight girls that attend regularly and a few others that come on occaision. I love them by teaching them truth. I listen to their questions and give them truthful answers based on Biblical principles, even when it's probably not the answer they want to hear. When I spend time at youth camp with them, I make sure they follow the rules and behave in an appropriate manner. I hug them every chance I get. I encourage them in their studies, their entertainments and their talents.
My husband teaches the High school boys and he applies the same principles to them. We love our kids in action and in word.
I love the people I met in India when I was there in 2006. I love them by writing their story for the rest of the world to read. I allocate all my royalties to their organization for the furtherance of their efforts there. I pray for them.
I love my parents by honoring them still in my words and actions when I am in their home and when they are in mine.
I love my husband by being a submissive wife, according to Biblical principles and I support his ministry work. And I tell him when he's behaving in a manner that is not godly.
I love my children by giving them honest Biblical answers to their questions and pointing them to God for the answers to the big questions in their lives.
I show love to strangers by being kind in long check out lines; by driving in a kind and safe manner; by being polite and respectful to customer service people at the store, the bank, on the phone, where ever.
I show love to my boss by doing my work well, efficiently and correctly. I arrive on time and put in a day's work.
I don't know if this is what you're asking for. I can't tell you how to love someone because I don't know your particular abilities, personality traits and quirks and interests. I can say this; God is love and we are His children so He gives us His love to share. If we truly seek to love people, then God will provide us the means.
Robi
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Post by mongoose on May 20, 2008 23:49:22 GMT -5
That actually is what I was looking for Robi. I know what I do, and could post it here, but what I'm looking for is a variety of answers from a variety of people about what THEY have been called to do. You've answered that question quite nicely, with the noticable omission of how you love those who mistreat you, either by insult, or by physical attack. But if that's not something you've defined in your life, or not something you want to post about, or whatever, I'll gladly take whatever I can get in the way of discussion of particular methods that people could try for loving other people and groups. I noticed that most of yours centered around communicating Biblical Truth. Interesting the connection between Truth and Love. Thank you.
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Post by rwley on May 21, 2008 9:36:29 GMT -5
I guess I've been fortunate in that I really haven't been up against too many people in my adult life who have either insulted me or mistreated me. The notable exception would be my ex-husband. The first ten years or so after the divorce are nothing to go by because I hated him with near murderous passion. God confronted me with that several years ago and I had to go through a time of dealing with anger, forgiveness, or rather lack of, and all the associated hangups. When I got through all that, I did forgive him, I forgave myself, and I moved on.
I have not spoken to him in over 10 years, but we don't really have any reason to communicate. The boys are grown and on their own. We live in different parts of the country. So how would I relate to him now?
I do pray for him and his family. I can do that now. I don't want to kill him any more. I don't want to be his best friend, but I certainly no longer wish him ill. I do seriously and honestly want him to be happy and I want him to be well. I could probably hold a conversation with him if given the opportunity.
I'm sure there are people out there who don't like me. I don't for one minute believe that I'm so great a person that everyone's going to love me all the time. But I so rarely focus on how they feel about me, because I'm too busy making sure my feelings toward them are correct. I guess I just don't think about if someone likes me or not, and I just treat everyone the same. And maybe that's the real issue. It doesn't matter how THEY feel, it matters what YOU do. I approach everyone the same; let's be friends. If they don't respond, I still remain friendly. I don't let their attitude affect mine; at least not most of the time.
I can't remember the last time I was actually insulted or hurt by someone. Either it hasn't happened in a while or I just didn't pay attention. I know that sounds a little strange, but I was sitting here really thinking about it and I just can't come up with an incident in recent memory.
I do have family members that I don't get along with. There are some on my mother's side that really don't think much of me. But it doesn't change the fact that I love them. When I'm around those people, which isn't often, I behave as I do around everyone else. I smile, I'm kind, I help out if it's needed, I just don't think about what they think of me. It's not important.
I wasn't always this way. I used to fight at the drop of a hat and I'd be the one to drop it. I took everything personally and was easily offended. God changed all that when He forced me to deal with my feelings about my ex.
I've never been physically attacked; not since a fist fight in junior high, so I don't know how I would react in that situation. I've been verbally attacked but not recently. How I would react now is different than it would have been ten years ago. Or even five years ago.
Do I sound like I live in a dream world? I don't know. Maybe I just haven't put myself out there to be exposed to that behavior. So maybe I haven't been tested in that area much lately.
Robi
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Post by mongoose on May 23, 2008 14:25:39 GMT -5
As I grew up in public elementary school I was un-popular, at least partially because I was very Christian, very opinionated, and very outspoken about those opinions. My peers tended to give me a hard time about it, and I tended to become aggressive and even violent on occasion, in response. One time I even attacked a friend of mine because he wouldn't play with me, and tried to strangle him. People have a hard time believing that when I tell of it today. *smiles*
In 5th Grade God impressed on me by His word His call to be a pacifist. I wrote a response to a current events assignment in social studies class stating that if someone called me to go to war on behalf of my country, I would refuse as a conscientious objector on the basis of the teachings in the Bible.
Several times over the next few years people attacked me, physically, verbally, etc. I stood there and took it each time, and was never really hurt as a result. They always left just as angry as when they came. I would get angry myself, but would not act on that anger, because I had made the commitment not to, and I'm nothing if not true to my word.
I remember one time in-particular, when I was jogging home from school. I was a senior at a new High School, and was not well known. My path took me down what was called "Smoker's hill," past a group of what turned out to be bullies who made a habit of hazing freshmen. They saw me jogging past, and the leader took off after me. I waited for him to catch up and stopped in my tracks, such that he ran into me and pulled me around. He got in my face, yelling at me to answer him when he spoke to me, but I remained calm, asking him by what authority he demanded an answer. He escalated until finally stating, "Because I'm a senior!" I said, "So am I. What of it?"
At this, he attempted to throw me down the side of the hill, toward a lagoon at the bottom. In the process, he too fell. I got up first, while he kept rolling past me, and walked back up the hill and on home. I was un-harmed, and he was probably humiliated in-front of his friends, but I was incredibly angry at that point. I determined that I would put the next person who touched me in that way into the hospital, and ask forgiveness later. I thank God that, by His grace, no one has touched me in that way since, and I have grown.
Scripture states that it is impossible that offenses should not come, and offenses have indeed come upon me since then. At one point, I was fired from a job without the owners having made any effort to work with me. After a time, I got over my resentment, repented, and went to shop at their store. The other boss who fired me, I eventually reached the point, with God's help, where I was able to send her an e-mail apologizing for thinking and speaking badly of her before and after the termination of my position, and asking her forgiveness. Several times in my current position, clients, many of whom are in crisis, have become verbally aggressive, threatening myself or my co-workers. I have managed to remain un-fazed, responding in the opposite spirit, and encouraging them to either participate in our programs according to the rules, or to seek assistance elsewhere. Every one of them has chosen one of those two options, and the situations have de-escalated before anyone was hurt.
So I come to what prompted me to write this. Last fall I spent $900+ dollars on my dream bike and accessories. That's almost half a pay check. The bike's a beauty, and a joy to ride. Last week I took it in for a basic tune up, and they replaced some parts in the drive train; surprising since I'd only ridden it a few times over the winter. I spent over $100.00 on that, but they didn't get it quite right, and I found I had some difficulty shifting. I figured since they had messed up the tuning, I could get them to fix it quickly and for free, but due to the backlog of bike tune and fix orders, they had to keep my only transportation in the shop for several days.
This morning I was dealing with my resentment of them, and knowing it is wrong and self-destructive to hold on to that, asked God for help. He reminded me of what we are to do to those who wrong us. I prayed it through, got over myself and my faulty belief that I have a right to good service, and prayed blessings upon the technicians working on my bike, the sales people I had dealt with, and the company. That finished, I felt much better and more at peace, more right with myself, with God, and with the world, and continued my preparations for my day.
That's how it's worked for me, responding to the call of God to love those that I would naturally be upset with.
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Post by rwley on May 24, 2008 10:39:05 GMT -5
My mom spent ten years working with inmates here in the Texas prison system. She was a counselor and Bible study leader and Chaplain. She taught them a process called "make the play ball with themselves." When a person wants to hurt, taunt, whatever, they "throw you a ball" in the form of angry words or something. If you respond, you are simply picking up the ball and throwing it back, resulting in them being able to throw again. If you do not respond, don't pick up the ball and throw, they are now unarmed and have retrieve their own ball in order to keep the "game" going. They have to play ball with themselves and that can get old and tiring pretty quickly. It sounds to me liike this is what you are learning and practicing. In most cases, I think that's exactly what we're supposed to do. We pray for our enemies, and those who despise us.
Personally, I think God gave that command for our own benefit rather than that of our enemies. If we are taking the time to pray for a person, we don't have time to hate them. By turning our attention to prayer, rather than to the issue, we return our focus to God and not on ourselves and our own hurt feelings or on their feelings. By that way, our attitude comes more in line with God's commands and it is easier to simply not pick up that ball and throw it back.
I praise God that you are able to go to Him with your issues and that He always provides the grace you need, in fact that we all need, to handle any and every event that comes our way. I will pray He continues to work on all of us to be better at not playing ball.
Robi
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