jamzr
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Posts: 12
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Post by jamzr on May 29, 2008 16:48:44 GMT -5
I'm new here, so feel free to move this if it's not in the right place, but this seemed like a good forum for this question:
What are some good resources/tools for language creation?
Also, anyone familiar with langmaker.com and do you recommend their freeware they offer?
Thx
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Post by Jeff Gerke on May 29, 2008 17:20:44 GMT -5
Hi, Jamzr, and welcome to The Anomaly! I'm familiar with the name langmaker but I haven't tried their program yet. I think there's someone here on the forum who uses it a lot. Hopefully he'll post here. The whole idea of language making is fascinating to me. However, the deeper I get into it the more it feels like hard work. I hated conjugating verbs in English, French, and Russian--what makes me think I would like it in Qweclo? Also check out the word generator found here: www.nexi.com/fun/rw/index.html. Jeff
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jamzr
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Post by jamzr on May 29, 2008 19:52:22 GMT -5
And thank you again for the reply Mr. Jeff Gerke. Yes it IS becoming much bigger than I intended. *groan* Fascinating too, though. I have to come up with something that would be believable as a very ancient language. I've been hopping around some sites about ancient Sumerian for comparison. This is slowing things down to. say. the. least. Darn cuneiform. j
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Post by Divides the Waters on May 29, 2008 21:55:40 GMT -5
I believe that in order to invent a credible fictitious language, you must have some knowledge of languages yourself. Tolkien spoke some twenty, if I recall correctly. That doesn't mean that we can't make passing attempts if we don't have that level of knowledge, but it does mean that we run the risk of sounding a little cornball. I was asked if I had come up with a system for creating language when I wrote my fantasy novel. I had to admit that I had not; I simply played the scene in my head, and wrote down what I heard. This is not a method I would recommend. I was just fortunate that most of it had a cadence that sounded somewhat legit. A simple glossary and syntax could help the author and the reader connect with some degree of verisimilitude. But bear in mind that language is a complex, living thing, and the sort of people who actually spend time to learn Elvish will probably spot any errors a mile away. For fantasy runes, etc., check out Brandon Sanderson's novel ELANTRIS.
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Post by torainfor on May 29, 2008 22:46:18 GMT -5
I'm cheating and just fiddling around with Esperanto.
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ezlo
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Post by ezlo on May 30, 2008 16:48:24 GMT -5
Yeah, creating a language is incredibly hard. For my alternate universe in my book Epiphany, I tried to do just that. Eventually after much research and development I gave up and told myself I was not J.R.R Tolkien.
Yeah, I wouldn't try it. Use something existing.
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jamzr
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Posts: 12
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Post by jamzr on May 30, 2008 17:47:50 GMT -5
Gulp. I'm not sure what I'm going to do because to take out the element of this foreign tongue changes the whole dang thing. The deal is, I can get by with only using 1 or two sentences of a language. I am not a linguist, and the issue of making it "cornball" as DtW so aptly put it, definitely looms in the back of my mind...constantly.
I think I will have to either change the plot or do some research into Sumerian and/or Akkadian and see where that takes me. I have dabbled in languages in the undergrad and post-grad years (ancient Greek and Spanish). Soon we'll be diving into Latin (I homeschool the kids), so hopefully with the wee bit of parsing and conjugating I've done mixed with my own fascination with language I can come up with something decent enough. And if not, then it's only a couple of sentences. Maybe I should take JK Rowling's stance and just talk *about* the language without actually having to put real words in there. We'll see.
Thanks for all your thoughts. j
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Post by Divides the Waters on May 30, 2008 20:06:31 GMT -5
If you can get by with using only one or two sentences, go ahead and go for the gold, Jamzr. It's not rocket science. I was just letting you know that it can be daunting if you're trying to "do a Tolkien." If you've dabbled in languages, you certainly have enough knowledge to make a credible-sounding couple of sentences. You could probably do more, if you wanted. Don't sell yourself short.
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Post by Spokane Flyboy on May 31, 2008 5:54:02 GMT -5
There are quite a few resources out there and I have used LangMaker, though I've only dabbled with it. The program could quickly push out a language for any given library, but for a truly well designed language, it requires some finesse from what I've seen. You can set just about any rules to it you wish. There's also the Language Construction Kit at the Zompist that has helpful information. www.zompist.com/kit.htmlThe problem with constructed languages is the tendency for them to be more logically arranged than real languages are. Even as sleek as Spanish is for a language, it still has enough exceptions to rules and inconsistencies to drive a non-native speaker crazy. Then there's the twisted mass that is English.
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Post by Divides the Waters on May 31, 2008 15:15:19 GMT -5
Whew. Don't get me started. The English language is great for writers, because it has so much variety. But it's monstrous to learn because of its amalgamation of rules and idiosyncrasies.
Jamzr, the idea of writing about the language rather than writing it directly is also a good one. I may be missing something, though; are you trying to re-create a dead language, or modify an old one into a new form? From what you've said, it doesn't sound as if you're trying to create one whole cloth.
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jamzr
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Post by jamzr on May 31, 2008 19:01:56 GMT -5
Wow thanks you guys for sticking with this thread. Okay, what I'm trying to do, ideally, is to come up with a dialect from ancient Sumerian, which would have probably been the language spoken by most of the ancient world at that time. "Dialect" is key that one sect of people in the ancient world could have used amongst themselves.
The other thing I'm trying to do is to imagine how language might have sounded before Sumerian. Imagine a language before language, if you will. The sources I have glanced at have referred to it as the pre-Babel language, perhaps even going back as far as Adam and even what God would have spoken to Adam?? It's to my benefit that we will never know what that sounded like, but still, whatever I come up with has to sound like Sumerian, the first recorded language *could* have been derived from it.
So...do let me know if you have any good ideas on this, or good resources that you know of where I can begin my search. Thanks much.
j
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Vaporwolf
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Post by Vaporwolf on Jun 5, 2008 20:56:44 GMT -5
I started creating my own language back in High School. Started off with a new phonetic alphabet that I used as a code, then eventually started replacing words as I needed to. I never worried much about linguistic rules or anything, just wanted my language to kinda sound eastern European (bad accent style) when spoken aloud. I don't know if that's the smartest idea, but I think it has worked for me. I do have to keep everything together in a dictionary and have a file for the language rules I've needed so far. Here's an example of a prayer I wrote and translated a few years back. Vor Koshim Serdineve Yove Dine Joenkentae Goech Nim Kuechon DuelKo Metae Lok Nrlkol Dine – Dine Waz Men DuelKo Srlvae Ra Sertule Koebae Laengol Ra PugaeYoech Koe Goech Voe Limim DuelKo Metae Lok Kom Glozm Dine. Dine Niva Thow Peejee KreetchYoech Limil Nrlkol, Gah Peejee Malaeyoech Dine Ol Metae. Dine Waz Men DuelveKo GropKo Ol Gropgee Dine Nadol Kobae Men DuelKo Guendanegan Dine Glozm Dine Vil Mukta. Dine Wuchow DuelKo Naekah Glozm Voe Reekoeyoech Men Ol Sentaga Kobae Voe Kreetchyoech Men Ol Soechae. Oych Dine Thow Rentue Kal Kotimyoech Joeskili, Gah Sobae DuelKo Kal Maetentoeyoech Pentago. Goesh Dine Gropgee Cheechae DuelveKo WizyoechKo Kobae Toenak Rath Klom Voe Sertule Limim Kom Glozm Dine. And the Translation: Feel free to throw dangling participles.
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Post by torainfor on Jun 5, 2008 23:11:42 GMT -5
Does it have a different grammatical structure?
And how come Yoda speaks English words with his own grammar? If he took the time to learn the prevailing language, you'd think he could speak it correctly.
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Post by Divides the Waters on Jun 5, 2008 23:34:37 GMT -5
Does it have a different grammatical structure? And how come Yoda speaks English words with his own grammar? If he took the time to learn the prevailing language, you'd think he could speak it correctly. You've obviously never been to Flagstaff.
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Vaporwolf
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Post by Vaporwolf on Jun 6, 2008 8:37:17 GMT -5
Not really. The only structure change I have is putting the possessor after the possessed. So instead of Vaporwolf's Story it would read Story Vaporwolf's (with the propperly replaces possessive suffix of course)... though I'm not sure if this translation follows that rule... it's a bit old.
Well and also contrations don't really exist... you would just write with a ' between the words (if writing in the English alphabet)
In regards to Yoda... I hear he speaks in the grammatical structure of American Sign Language. So maybe he learned the galactic standard language from a someone without vocal chords?
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