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Post by torainfor on Dec 9, 2008 16:26:16 GMT -5
Thanks for that, seraphim.
I've been reading internetMonk, a Southern Baptist professor who wishes his church was more liturgical, for some time, now. I also read the LiveJournal blog of an Orthodox Bishop (I think?) in New York (who goes by the handle "seraphimgrist"). So, I've been reading quite a bit from people who value liturgy, but next to nothing on why.
One thing I wanted to hear clearly: you are saying that (according to Orthodoxy) the Orthodox liturgy is the correct way to worship, not that it is necessary for salvation, yes?
Also, how do you know Orthodox liturgy is from heaven, apart from similarities to Judaism?
I've been (arrogantly, perhaps) trying to understand the draw of liturgy (apart from any conviction that it is right or correct). Is it that the routine and the anticipation of that routine reminds the soul how to arrive at a state of worship? (We play maybe twenty minutes of music at a time, and it usually takes people a while to get into a worshipful state. A lot never do.) What is it about doing that corporately? "Where two or more are gathered..."?
Still, I hope there are guitars in heaven...
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Post by seraphim on Dec 9, 2008 21:56:26 GMT -5
Dear Torainfor,
I am not familiar with those blogs. I'm more familiar with the Glory to God blog by Fr. Stephen Freeman, the Monochos Forum, and Ancient Faith Radio which has a number of podcasts by Orthodox clergy and scholars.
With regard to the Divine Liturgy I would say that it is the correct way to worship. It is intimately related to our salvation to be sure though I would not say it's specific form is of itself determinative of salvation...of course one must bear in mind what Orthodox mean by "salvation" is not what a western Protestant or even a Roman Catholic Christian would necessarily mean by salvation. For western Christians salvation is posited almost exclusively in forensical and juridical terms...that is to say the content of salvation is a legal status with relation to God. This is not the understanding of the eastern Church who speaks of salvation primarily in therapeutic terms. In the west salvation is accomplished in the courtroom...in the east it is accomplished in the hospital. Thus we would see the Eucharist itself as the medicine of immortality as important to our salvation.
We know it because we know where Moses received the worship he taught to the Hebrews...and that worship has not ceased since. It modified to accommodate the revelation of Jesus Christ but with that its core structures passed on into the Church...some got more gussied up with time, which is not inappropriate pastorally speaking since it is appropriate that a seed give birth to roots and trunk and limbs and leaves and yet maintain an unbroken ontological continuity if one is to identify the life of the seed and of the tree as one life in continuum. There are a number of scholarly works out that than can show the relationship between ancient liturgies and old Judaic liturgical forms.
Speaking more mystically we also know because how God has revealed Himself across the ages within the context of the liturgy: visions of angels censing with the priest/deacon, the Divine Light shining out of the Chalice at the prayer of the epiclesis, etc. There are also places where old Orthodox churches have been destroyed by Muslims or various secular authorities where at times, like on the feast day of the Church the angels are still heard and at times even seen continuing to worship within the ruins even unto the present day.
As for how liturgy effects us...that's hard to pin down because people are different and find different aspects initially attractive. So there is a big taste and see component. Some come and have a profound experience, others are drawn by the beauty, others the reverence. The best I can do is give you my reasons...perhaps my justifications. Part of the problem that many Protestants have with Orthodox liturgy is the problem they have with any liturgy...they don't know what it is, how to relate to it, how to enter in and participate in it. It's just people in funny robes playing with food and mumbling profoundly in set places. The first liturgy (Catholic) i ever went too, I was just lost ...and bored. It made no sense and I could not understand in what way a liturgy was worship in any sense I was familiar with...which the time was evangelical and charismatic. Finally someone gave me a book called Evangelical is Not Enough which was written by a form Protestant which explained what liturgy was and what it meant in terms that I could understand. So here's my condensed version:
1. God chose and instituted liturgical worship back in Moses day. It was His preference in worship modes not something cobbled together out of man's imagination about what he thought worship ought to be like. God told us and He showed the Prophets and He showed the Apostles. Recall also that until the destruction of the Temple the Apostles met with Christians in the porches and participated in the Temple's liturgical hours of prayer. If that was something to be abolished in Christ, they would not have continued it.
2. When Christ told the Samaritian woman that the day would come when people would worship neither on their mountain or in the Temple but in Spirit and Truth, that said everything about how the "where" of worship would alter (from a single fixed physical place to the presence of the Spirit) but not the nature/form of worship. That being already established on the heavenly model was not to change to another model.
3. Liturgical worship means "the work/service of the people". In the books of Acts we read at the very beginning of the NT Church that they met together and "liturgied" unto the Lord. Liturgy is the exercise of the holy priesthood of the believer in the Body of Christ. It is led by a priest, but it is the offering and service of the people....sort of like a football team to use a crude analogy. The quarterback may lead the team...but he leads as part of the team, and it is as a team one side or another advances toward the goal. Many modern churches suffer in time from the effects of cults of personality...a church built up by a big name preacher which if he leaves or falls then dissipates unless another big name preacher takes it over, eg. like what happened to the Orlando Christian Center when Benny Hinn moved west. In Orthodoxy the Liturgy is the Liturgy and a priest is a priest, any given one may be better or worse in some ways than the next...but the worship remains the same. It is totally God centered and not man centered. The priest faces the altar, not us.
That is to say all the focus is on participating in that heavenly worship. We are not spectators to be entertained or lectured, but rather are gathered as a body to offer our worship together with all other Orthodox Christians in the world and across time...keeping faith both with those who have come before us but with those who will come after as well. We worship outside of time.
4. The worship we have is what we have received. It is not our invention or innovation. We might liken it to a favorite old hymn. If we encounter that hymn with a living faith then that hymn though the words of another give expression to our faith as well. In time as our faith deepens we penetrate the words and our hearts are transfixed in the place before God where that hymn came from, and the then hymn is truly ours...belonging to us as much as to the one who wrote it as much as it will belong to those who come after and know God in the same way. It becomes window to heaven...a verbal/musical icon that takes us beyond the page. So it is with the liturgy...it is an intricate icon of the worship in the heavenlies...and ascent into the heavenlies which can be pierced and participated in best and most fully by those with a vibrant and living faith.
Once you have been caught up in it...its hard to describe but impossible to forget or to desire any other way.
Anticipation does play a role...novelty in worship is ultimately destructive to worship. The long arc of liturgy is to build a familiarity with the Holy....it's like drill in sports practice...strength, endurance, and muscle memory are reinforced again and again and again...and when the game comes...the skills are there deeply engrained. Worship conditions us to the presence of God...to reverence and to humble service. All the sights, sounds, textures, and tastes all serve to reinforce our mindfulness of God and the Holy. (aside) one of our tests of a good icon or hymn is if it leads to prayer...does it lift and still the heart in the presence of God, does it call us to repentance and sorrow for our sins in the midst of the joy of His great mercy. When I first became Orthodox I used to wonder about all the old Protestant hymns I was going to miss, being then unfamiliar with Orthodox hymns until one time I heard a recording of the Paschal Troparion...Xristos Anesthi (Christ is Risen) by the Valaam Brotherhood Choir....It hit me like a golden nail in the heart...one moment I was just listening and the next moment without warning...and yet without any jolt I discovered myself swept up in prayer...my heart only wanted to pray. That was the day I discovered all Orthodox prayers are hymns and all Orthodox hymns are prayers...and the Valaam monks were truly praying as they sang. It just transported me without warning in the most gentle of ways. (end of aside)...
As for the corporate aspect Orthodox believe that we are not save alone, but rather in and in relation to the Church. In the Church, the Body of Christ we are members of one another...and so even if we are physically alone we still live and do and pray as members of the Church...so we primarily use the time tested prayers of the Church...and through them grow into them and their mindset so that we may learn in our hearts to pray more fully and more deeply as the Church.
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Post by mongoose on Dec 9, 2008 23:22:24 GMT -5
Surprising how similar is the theology of Eastern Orthodoxy, and the Charismatic churches. The biggest difference, I think, is the emphasis in the Charismatic churches on the individual communion with God, vs. that in the Eastern Orthodox churches on the communal communion with God. But both value worship, and maybe prayer, above the other spiritual disciplines, and both value communion with God as the highest goal of the faith. Right?
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Post by seraphim on Dec 10, 2008 0:52:09 GMT -5
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Post by mongoose on Dec 10, 2008 16:55:56 GMT -5
Paul basically said that the goal of the acquisition of the Holy Spirit is to empower us to know God and to make Him known.
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Post by morganlbusse on Dec 11, 2008 13:25:08 GMT -5
I guess I would define worship as "being in awe of something and that awe prompts us to show our admiration."
I use this definition because there are other things we can worship besides God (money, power, a person) and by the way we act, the constant thoughts and energy we pour towards our object of awe, shows that we are worshiping.
But going back to worshiping God, we are all different, and thus we will show our admiration (to use my definition) towards God in different ways. And that admiration is stirred in different ways.
One person might be stirred while watching a sunset, in awe of such beauty and in turn, worshiping the one who made that sunset... God. Another might be stirred while listening to a song, the words piercing their heart and in turn, worshiping God. Even a small thing like holding one's child, seeing how perfectly God made their little fingers can prompt one to worship God.
And I think in the same way that different things turn us to worship God, when we do worship, it looks different between each of us. Some people love to clap and sing, others sit quietly and close their eyes. In the Bible, it even talks of David leaping and dancing with nothing on (pretty extreme worship ;P)
In the end, worship is the heart's response to God, the absolute awe that we are standing in the presence of the most majestic, holy, and loving being there is.
Side note: A great book that goes into further detail of this is Gary L. Thomas' Sacred Pathways.
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