True or False: All Sin is Selfishness

[Jeff Gerke]

What do you think?

Is it true that all sin is essentially selfishness? You tell a lie about someone--but why? Could it be because the lie would help you in some way? You act out in anger against someone--but why? Does it make you feel better? Does it help you recover some status you felt you'd lost?

Can you come up any sin that does not have selfishness at its root?

Jeff

[rwley]

I think you're right. Selfishness is the root cause of all sin, all the way back to the first sin. The serpent appealed to Eve's "self"; he showed her that what was pleasing to her was okay for her to have. She heard him say if she ate the fruit she would be "like God, knowing good and evil" and she saw that the fruit was good. Basically, if you want it, take it. It's yours. You deserve it.

Anything we choose to do that is "self" originated; from little tiny white lies to the most extreme violent crime is rooted in "self". To avenge, to advance, to gain, to whatever it is because the "self" wants it and chooses to ignore the consequences that may come about. To continue with that type of selfishness leads to pride which leads to all sorts of trouble. But yes, it all starts with self.

I believe that is why God designed Christianity the way He did. It's not difficult for us to lead a Christian life, it's impossible. Only Christ did it, and only Christ can continue to do it through us and for us. In order for us to be the Christian people that God wants us to be, we have to give up self entirely and allow Christ to be the Christian for us. This keeps our focus on Him and off us which helps us avoid being selfish and therefore helps us avoid sin.

I'm not there.

Robi

[torainfor]

I think with the selfishness comes pride/ego. If we obeyed God's law, things would work out the best for us in the macro-cosmic level. But instead of relying on that fact, we assume we know better what's best for us.

[Jeff Gerke]

Hmm, now you guys have got me thinking. Maybe there's even one step before selfishness: the belief that God has not given us something He should have given us.

That was the root of Eve's sin: she believed the lie that God had withheld the magic bean from her that would make her like Him, and that's not fair.

Maybe that belief--that we've been gypped of something we should've had--is at the foundation of all our compensatory behaviors. (As covered in Search for Significance, as it happens.) We feel we don't have what we should have, and so we seek to fill up the deficit by taking what we "deserve." When Adam and Eve believed they were deficient, that's when they believed they were something to be ashamed of.

The irony is that before they believed they didn't have enough, they really did. For all our lives we seek to recapture what God has already given.

James says that our "lust for what we should have" will, when allowed to have free rein, always result in sin. (That's my paraphrase of James 1:14-15, especially from The Message.)

Maybe all sin is based on selfishness, but all selfishness is the inevitable "offspring" of believing we've been ripped off.

Expanding on the idea of James 1. The picture I get when I read vv. 14-15 is of lust running around inside a cage like a she-dog in heat. On the outside of the cage is temptation. The two of these would like nothing better than to get together, and then give birth to sin. But there's a gatekeeper--our free will--keeping them apart.

Most of the time. Except when we give in to selfishness. Then we open the gate and let sin conceive.

So maybe the male dog on the outside is the whispering voice saying we've been ripped off. When we choose to listen to that voice--for whatever reason--we essentially open the cage. The belief that we've been ripped off connects with our own desire to get what should've been ours anyway, and the result is a selfish, sinful behavior.

What things cause us to open that gate? Anger at being imposed upon or having to do something we wish we didn't, or doing something noble but not receiving our just reward. In other words, the feeling that we've been slighted. When we believe that, we're willing to throw open the cage to get a little of what we are owed.

Instant gestation: sin is born.

Jeff

[rwley]

Isn't that basically pride? Wasn't that Lucifer's problem as well?

RWL

[Jeff Gerke]

Aha, funny you should ask that, Robi! If I didn't know better I'd say you'd been prompted to ask that question, as all morning I've been wrestling with this issue.

I've never liked the idea that it was pride that caused Satan to fall.

(Notice I said Satan, not Lucifer. Lucifer is a transliteration of "Son of the Morning," which would be a good name for Satan if the passage in question referred to him, but I don't believe it does. And that's the point.)

Years ago I realized we know almost nothing about Satan from the Bible. In Genesis 3 he's the serpent. In Job 1 he's the accuser (ha satan). In the Gospels he's falling from heaven like lightning or tempting Jesus. In the Epistles he's a prowling lion. And in Revelation he's the dragon.

Those are the only places we know for sure we're talking about Satan.

And yet there are two other main passages from the Old Testament that many people think may refer to Satan, but which actually pertain to human leaders. Nevertheless, a good part of our theology about Satan comes from these passages.

The first is Isaiah 14, and is where we get "Son of the Morning" and that this individual was cast down because of pride. He wanted to ascend to heaven, it says, and make himself like the Most High.

Well, that does sound like Satan, all right. The reasoning goes like this: Who else could even have such a thought? But in context this is about the King of Babylon. Now, OT kings before have had thoughts like this (consider Nimrod and his Tower of Babel), and yet they are not thought to be Satan. So why pick this one and say it has to be about Satan?

If we--just for the sake of discussion--throw out Isaiah 14 from the body of passages concerning Satan, we're left without the name Lucifer and without the motive of pride.

[Poor Robi: you were meaning to agree with me and it looks like I'm disagreeing with you. LOL. I'm not. I just was going to make this point anyway this morning and your message provided the perfect segue.]

Then there's Ezekiel 28. Here we see the other passage that people have taken to mean must refer to Satan.

This one's a little harder to say it isn't about Satan, because of the language. Ezekiel says that this individual was in Eden and was "the anointed cherub who covers," whatever that means.

In context, this passage is about the leader of Tyre. Later the passage talks about unrighteousness in trade, hardly something Satan engages in. And yet in the middle section Ezekiel seems to take a departure and wax poetic about this human king.

Maybe there is some crossover here. Maybe in some portion of this passage God gave Ezekiel a vision of Satan's fall. And that fall had pride as one of its main components, along with iniquity, etc.

But the point is that we don't know. All we can say for sure is that God was upset with the leader of Tyre--for his pride--and in denouncing him he used language that sounds like it might not be about a human king at all. That could be Satan, but we just don't know for sure.

Now, why do I bring all this up?

Because if you remove these two passages from the discussion, passages that might or might not be about Satan, we're left with the other passages I mentioned above. And none of them says Satan fell because of pride.

Personally, I think Satan fell because of discontentment.

And this brings me back to the original thread.

I've been wrestling with this idea of selfishness at the heart of sin and a feeling of being ripped off at the heart of selfishness.

What is the feeling of being ripped off but discontentment? I should've had something but I don't. I shouldn't have had to do or endure something but I had to. I should've received credit for something but I didn't. That should've been mine. I shouldn't have to do this. Why is she getting that and not me?

That's how the Serpent tempted Eve: with discontentment. You don't have something you should. God withheld the good stuff from you. He's a meanie. You should just take back a little for yourself.

And if sowing discontent was his primary tactic against man, it's not too much of a leap to think that discontentment was what had tempted him.

Millennia later when Satan appeared to tempt Jesus, it was with the same theme: discontentment. You don't have food but You should. You don't have nations bowing before You but You should. You don't have crowds awed by Your power but You should. Come on, take a little of what's owed You.

Here's where I'm going with all this: I think discontentment is the root of all sin.

I think Satan fell because it somehow entered his mind that he wasn't getting something he felt he deserved. It wasn't pride or the desire to replace God, imo, but a sin with a small beginning: I should've had that. From there, it germinated and grew and ate at him, until finally it burst forth into full-blown rebellion.

The corollary is beautiful: contentment is the bane of Satan. Contentment is the talisman against temptation. A content person realizes he needs nothing more than what he has. A content person is not tempted to grab more for himself to compensate for what he doesn't have. A content person is not selfish. Indeed, a content person can be generous.

Think of Satan's plight, the poor dear. He wanted to hurt God (to make up for all the things He'd not given him, of course) and so he wanted to defile God's precious humans. But how do you cause content people to sin? You can't.

He finally hit upon the formula that advertisers still use today: he created the need. He convinced his target audience that they were not complete as they were, that their lives would be enhanced if only they had the product he was peddling.

When Eve bought into the notion that she wasn't complete after all, that God had held back something He should've given, she was Satan's.

And I think we're the same way. As soon as we believe that we have been gypped, we're Satan's. The temptation has impregnated our flesh and sin is the inevitable progeny (James 1:14-15).

The secret to avoiding temptation and preventing it from generating sin, then, is contentment.

It's the realization that "God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work" and that "I can do all things through Him who strengthens me."

It's the idea, out of Search for Significance, that there is no "hole" leaking self-worth out of the bottom of my heart, requiring constant replenishment through the approval of others or whatever else.

I know this is long and I'm sorry, but I'm having one of those moments when I feel like I've discovered the unified theory of everything. ;D

It's true that all sin is selfishness, as I postulated at the outset. But that's not the end of the trail. Selfishness happens because of discontentment. Therefore all sin is the result of discontentment.

And the solution is contentment in God.

Dear Jesus, please encircle us with the certainty of the utter completeness You have nestled us inside. Amen.

[torainfor]

I dunno, I think even "discontent" needs a qualifier.

We can be discontent with our spiritual development and strive for further maturity.

We can be discontent with the the spiritual state of our family and pray for their salvation.

We can be discontent with the current state of Christian-based publishing and create a new company.

Phil Vischer was discontent with children's entertainment. He wanted an alternative that taught Christian values and led kids to a deeper relationship with Christ. (This comes to mind as the Veggie Tales worship CD plays in my dining room.) God blessed him in that.

But there were some other issues. He wanted to be the Christian Walt Disney. He was discontent with simply making videos, he wanted to make a feature film. He was discontent with the cinderblock offices in an industrial area, he wanted a brand new building that would draw in and entertain kids (think the FotF Visitor's Center). He was even warned by a mysterious lady who wrote a couple of letters over the years that he should watch out for his pride.

Which isn't to say his pride was the direct cause of the fall of Big Ideas. (That actually came when the company who bought the company that had the contract to market the VHS tapes was "discontent" with the legal contract, took Big Idea to court, and made them bankrupt although Big Idea actually won the case.) But maybe that's why God let it fall.

(All information on Phil, Bob, and Larry taken from Phil's book, Me, Myself, and Bob.)

So, say "discontent with God's plan" or "God's provision" or something. Which I still say is pride: thinking you know better than God.

[Spokane Flyboy]

Pride also focuses on ourselves, how many people forgo help due to pride, or get themselves in binds because of their pride. I've known people that would rather let themselves and their family suffer than be helped by friends or family because "they are perfectly capable of fixing things on their own."

[rwley]

Discontent, pride, selfishness; all root causes of sin. Is there one root to the roots? I don't know. Why are we discontent? Why do we think we deserve more? Isn't that pride? Or is it lack of trust? Do we think we need that "thing" because we don't trust God to give us what we do need? Are we discontent because we fear there won't be anything else? Are we lacking in the trust that what God provides is enough? And doesn't that go back to a kind of pride in the wisdom of our own judgment instead of the wisdom of God?

Why was satan discontent? Why did he think he deserved to have whatever he wanted?

I think as soon as one says "I deserve this" it's pride. That causes the discontentment that leads to the selfishness that leads to the sin.

And yes, I know Lucifer may or may not refer to Satan. I've done that study as well. I guess I've gotten used to thinking of him as Lucifer so that came out. Sorry.

To boil it down, IMO, pride is the basic root that leads to all the other things. When we get away from the idea that we "deserve" anything, we become extremely grateful for what we do have and become content with our circumstance.

I don't know if there is a dfinitive answer, though. At least not on this side.

Robi

[Jeff Gerke]

Awesome conversation, you guys. Torainfor, good correction; thank you.

Maybe pride and discontentment (with God's provision) are flavors of the same thing. They both say "Wait a minute, I deserve better than this."

I think the most useful thing that's come out of all this for me is the realization that this notion is the thing that causes sin. It is that male dog circling the cage, and when I embrace it and say, "Yeah, I do deserve better," that's when I throw the cage open and allow sin to be born.

The other cool thing is the realization that contentment is the devil's bane. It is the garlic around my neck that foils the devil's every attack.

Now...do I pray for contentment? Isn't that as dangerous as praying for patience? Won't He give me lots of "opportunities" to practice contentment?

You guys are great.

Jeff

[torainfor]

One of the main themes Phil got out of the whole experience was that very thing--the danger of believing you "deserve" something. He was the CEO of a successful entertainment company. Surely he deserved to fly first class and stay in fancy hotels. It's a slippery slope, though, when you convince yourself you deserve something that's actually an indulgence.

[Teskas]

I'm not sure how I could add to this discussion, but it has reminded me of a story--a true story--from long ago.

There was once a school, and one day the students read a passage in a learned commentary which said, "We should thank God for the bad things that happen to us." This puzzled the students. Only good things come from God. Why should we thank Him for the bad ones?

Their teacher said, why not consult So-and-so. He is a wise and holy man, and he doesn't live very far from here. He'll know the answer.

So the entire class traipsed out of the town deep into the countryside where this saintly man lived as a hermit. As they approached his dwelling they saw how poor it was. The thatched roof was nearly collapsed, the windows were broken, the door was rotten.

They went inside. The old man, who was very frail, had only one chair, which was broken. Everyone crowded in. He offered them gruel. It was all he had to eat. The poverty was apparent. Then the students asked him, "It says in such-and-such a commentary that we should thank God for the bad things that happen to us. Why should we do this?"

The old man said, "Why are you asking me? How would I know to answer? Nothing bad has ever happened to me."

I'm wondering whether sometimes it is hard to understand sin if we use words like "pride" or "selfishness". It keeps turning us back to the doer of the sin.

When one is obedient to God, I think there is a kind of transparency about a person. There's nothing important being hidden which would affect our grasp on the reality we experience in that other person's company. I'm sure you have all had the experience of being in the company of this kind of Christian. Sometimes it is tangible, as though there is a physical light shining out from them. Their faces radiate the holiness of God.

The reason I mention this is that I am wondering whether, at bottom, we are dealing with a kind of architecture. Sin is a kind of edifice--like a tomb. There are no windows in this mausoleum. There is no transparency for the light of God. It is total darkness. When we live sinfully, we are like the eyeless fish that live in caves. We get used to it, and think it is normal. But it isn't normal. Fallen nature is our building block. It is an architectural material never made by the Logos.

So, I wonder whether the bottom of sin is something far more basic than "pride" or "selfishness", which are facets of this material.

We know that in Christ we are a new creation. Could it be that we are still building our lives with the wrong materials. That at bottom sin is an unwillingness to give up our comfort zones with what feels normal? We are willing to go on living in a grave because we've always lived that way?

[mongoose]

I just have to respond before reading the whole thread. Jeff (and others), I believe there IS something at the root of Selfishness, even deeper than this idea that we've been ripped off. After all, the Bible says that it is inevitable that offenses will come, that is, that we'll be ripped off. So what? If our minds are staid in Christ, that won't bother us. So why WOULD that bother us? Why would that result in selfishness, which would result in sin?

I say the root is fear. We become selfish, thinking it is wrong that we've been ripped off, that we should have whatever it is, and that it's our right to take it, because we're afraid that God won't give us everything we need/desire. I propose that the seed the serpent planted in the mind/heart of Eve was the fear that God was withholding something good from her. When we are afraid of something, we try to compensate, to ensure that what we fear will not come upon us. We're afraid of the dark, so we turn on a light. We're afraid of being poor, so we gather and hoard wealth to ourselves. We're afraid of being physically inferior, so we use what strength we have to push around whomever we can. The list goes on, but I think it all comes down to fear, which is why I hate fear so much and will do all I can to help people determine the root cause of their fear.

So maybe it goes deeper still, but not much deeper. Most people are afraid they'll be abused, because at some point in their lives they were abused, and we assume that the world works in patterns. If it happened once, it'll happen again. They will be abused again, and so they sin in one way or another, to protect themselves, afraid as they are that God won't protect them any more than he did in the past.

But the really ironic thing is that when we see our past, and the harm that befell us, and we are afraid that God will let it happen again, and we take our safety into our own hands to protect ourselves from a repeat of the harm, we take away from God the opportunity to show himself strong on our behalf and save us from whatever harm it is. Thus, our very effort to fight, or fly from a given source of harm is what brings us into the path of that harm. We're afraid we'll hurt ourselves when we fall on the ice, so we walk carefully on the ice. Because we're walking that way on the ice (which isn't the best way to walk on the ice) and because we're so afraid we'll fall and hurt ourselves, we do fall, and we do hurt ourselves. The person who, on the other hand, is confident that they won't fall walks confidently and does not fall, and even when they do, they don't hurt themselves much, and even if they hurt themselves a little, they're okay with it. They trust that God would not let them hurt themselves more than fits with God's plan, and they trust God to have the best things planned for them.

God'll let us take care of ourselves, even if it means sinning against him, lacking the faith that He'll take care of us. Then He'll have the grace to forgive us for our sin, our fear, and our lack of faith, and to give us another chance to learn and implement the lesson. Another chance to walk across the ice without fear. Another chance to look at the tempting fruit, and to leave it on the tree, trusting that God will give us the better things. Another chance to forgive the brother or sister who again offended us, instead of sinning against them. Another chance to freak out, or to calm down and put our hope and trust in God to work it out on our behalf. If we fear that God won't come through for us, we sin in our efforts to take matters into our own hands. If, on the other hand, we trust and are content in God, we let the temptation and the source thereof go.

[Jeff Gerke]

Good comments, you guys.

Mongoose, I've heard someone teach that all anger is really fear in disguise. Fear of being hurt or taken advantage of or whatever. Sounds like it goes with what you're saying.

Jeff

[Jeff Gerke]

I've been thinking about what you said, mongoose, and how it relates to everything else we've talked about in this thread.

I think you're right that fear lies behind many sins, but possibly not all of them.

I suppose you could make a case that a person's act of shoplifting, for instance, is because of a fear that he won't have everything he needs. But to me it seems more likely that it arises from the "Hey, I deserve better than what I've got" attitude. Call it pride, entitlement, or the feeling of being gypped.

I'm not meaning to discount your thoughts, though; not at all. As I say, I've been thinking this through. To me right now it seems that there are two to three possible motives behind sin: pride, the feeling of being ripped off, and fear. (I say "two to three" because I'm not sure pride and "victim entitlement" aren't two aspects of the same thing.)

Between these three, I wonder if we've found the root motivations behind all sin. Or are there more?

Sorry for not letting this go. I have a tendency to keep trying to unravel a topic until I feel I've reached the end of the thread.

So it this the unholy trinity: pride, victim entitlement, and fear?

My original question was whether all sin is selfishness. I think we've pretty much decided the answer is yet. But the new question became "What's behind the selfishness?" Have we arrived at our complete answer?

Certainly the sin nature (flesh), free will, a fallen world, an incomplete sanctification, and a tempting devil all play into it, too. But in terms of the root motives that we go with when we do give in to temptation that results in sin, are we there yet?

One addendum: I've been talking about James 1:14-15 in terms of two dogs, one on the inside of a cage and the other on the outside. When the two are allowed to get together, lust conceives and sin is the offspring. I've thought of another way to think of this automatic union if two things are allowed to meet: a chemical reaction.

When vinegar and baking soda are separate, they are stable. But put them together and...instant violent reaction. Same with our desire to sin (inside the "cage") and the temptations (outside it) when they are allowed to mix. Instant sin.

Jeff