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Post by strangewind on Jul 1, 2008 11:12:38 GMT -5
I think we can miss a great definer of sin: a falling short.
Sometimes it isn't pride, selfishness, arrogance or any other motive that causes us to be removed from God. Sin also means the state of having fallen short, being helpless to do anything about it, wholly dependent on another to bridge that gap.
Sometimes we sin, even, in our attempts to better bridge that chasm. We set ourselves up as Christ-figures to others (as opposed to the subtly, but crucially different "being simply Christlike") in an attempt to take on their burdens, be their savior, and bring us "one step closer" to God. Sort of the "life in the balance" view of religion - that if we add enough good things to the scale, they'll outweigh the bad in the end.
I guess this is a form of selfishness, but it sort of overburdens the term "selfish" at some point.
If we don't understand "sin as native (not natural) shortcoming" we may never quite get a handle on "sin as motivated action."
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Post by mongoose on Jul 1, 2008 22:04:41 GMT -5
If I remember right, John Westley believed we could be entirely sanctified, meaning that we would never sin. This cannot be accepted, given our understanding of Scripture and our observation of the world around us, unless we consider his definition of sin.
Mr. Wesley differentiated between "Sin" and "Mistakes" that may have caused us to act differently from the will of God. I'm not certain where the definition "Falling short of the mark," or "missing the mark" came from. I might assume that it's a literal translation of a Greek or Hebrew word. But Mr. Wesley was a renowned scholar, so I doubt he would have ignored the actual definition to generate his own.
Given the assumption that sin is distinct from mistake, it refers to those actions that we knowingly and/or intentionally do (or say or think) that are contrary to the will of God. Mr. Wesley believed we could reach a point in our spiritual journey, prior to death, where we would no longer knowingly and/or intentionally violate the will of God. We might still make mistakes, and we might or might not realize we had done wrong at some later point, but our motives would be pure.
Obviously it would take quite a while and a lot of work and motivation to reach even this point of entire sanctification, even if you assume Mr. Wesley's definition. I don't know if I know anyone who has, and I certainly have not. But IS it possible for one who pursues God? Have people reached it? And can we accept this definition of sin? If so, what would that say about the role of selfishness, or greed, or fear, or pride, or any other motivation?
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Post by strangewind on Jul 7, 2008 14:34:02 GMT -5
Inherited sin is not selfish. There's nothing we can do about the transgression of Adam which led to genetic sin.
Imputed sin is not selfish. There's nothing Jesus did to earn the sin (or even inherit it!) of the world that was accounted to him on the cross. In fact, the imputed sin of Jesus was the most selfless act any many has ever engaged in.
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Post by newburydave on Jul 16, 2008 15:52:32 GMT -5
I'd like to revisit the question about the roots of sin.
First off let me say that I think there is a danger as defining sin as selfishness. Carnal human rationalization frequently twists the definition of selfish around to condemn the act of obeying what God commands us to do. I've had people accuse me of being selfish because I wouldn't work on Sunday when they wanted me to. I've had church people accuse me of selfishness because I wouldn't violate my convictions (which are based on scripture) to please them. I've seen new converts who got messed up by twisted reasonings about selfishness like this.
When discussing sin one of the facts from scripture that helped me keep things straight was the idea of "Imputed" sins versus committed sins. I don't like most Theology, so a lot of my rules of thumb are kind of like the shirtsleeve English version.
As I understand it from scriptures there are committed sins, things that we do that are objectively wrong (transgressions, debts), but God doesn't automatically count them against us. Imputed sins are the ones He counts against us. Paul gets into this overtly in Hebrews in chapter 7. James and some of the others sort of imply imputation when they discuss deliberate sin.
There are six different Greek words in scripture that are used in discussing sin and sinful behavior. Three of them describe "missing the Mark" because our brokenness due to the Fall makes us unable to perfectly perform God's revealed will. These have the sense of trying to do what God says but "spinning out instead of making the Curve [missing the mark]" or "not having enough to pay the bill [bankrupt]". These are the literal meanings of the two words used in the Lords Prayer "debts" and "transgressions".
The other three describe deliberately, with malice and fore-thought, rebelling against God's Sovereignty by willfully breaking his Law or violating the example of Christian Love that Jesus left us. Frequently when you see people doing this they say something like, "I know the Bible says it 's wrong but I think...." These are the types of sin that God deals with severely. Usually these types of sins are talked about in Scriptures associated with people who are not living under God's grace. These are always Imputed sins that cut us off from God and bring judgment.
Based on this and other things in scripture I personally think the issue at the heart of Imputable Sin is rebellion but I don't think that this is the ultimate root of the matter. I know that the case for selfishness as the root of rebellion can be made. I've made it myself many times in preaching. But I think there is a deeper taproot to both Selfishness and Rebellion.
Based on several key verses in the Bible I would say that the root of sin is willful unbelief. Refusing to believe what God has told us.
That was the genesis of Eve's sin. She chose to believe the Devil's lie instead of what God had told them. Hebrews 12:14 cautions us against the "evil heart of unbelief" as the source of all the misery of Esau and of sinfulness in general. Abraham, despite all of his moral failings, was counted righteous because he believed what God had promised him, nothing else.
Considering that the purpose of mans creation from God's standpoint was to have a friend with whom He could share fellowship; the whole issue of mutual faith (ie. believing in each other) is really the essence of the desired relationship.
Marriage, the closest analogy to the relationship God desires with us, is based on trust, believing in each other.
People who sin against God are guilty of many things . Selfishness it usually one of them. But at the root of all of these things is the fact that in that act they refused to believe that what God said about it is exactly what He meant.
A working definition of faith that I like a lot is that "When you believe in something, you always act like it is true."
People who say they believe in God, who then go out and deliberately Violate his Laws and the example that Jesus left us are not acting like they really believe in the God of the Bible. Either they are ignorant (which is very possible) or they don't really believe what God told us and showed us. They doubt the honesty and faithfulness of God!
It is my experience that when I get understanding of what God wants me to do and set my will to obey Him he always gives me strength to do it. I'm still ignorant sometimes and sometimes I miss the mark through weakness. But even in my failure I believe what God tells me. That He looks at my heart and If I'm doing my dead level best to do things the way He says to do them, then the Blood of Jesus covers my mistakes and failings (committed transgressions).
Now you can get obedience and selflessness and the other Christian graces out of that but the only thing I'm doing is to believe that what God tells me is true and taking action based on that fact. I don't have to figure out anything else. All the graces just flow from my decision to believe God for my situation in that place and time.
I think that's at least partially what Paul was talking about when he wrote about being crucified with Christ. It is simply believing what God says, with your life at stake, even when everything looks impossible and like disaster. This kind of life is the opposite to a life of sin.
IMHO this is the rock bottom root of sin.
Here is a poem the Lord gave me that kind of hits around this subject:
Ye shall Be witnesses unto me Acts 1:8;& Rom. 12:2 (KJV)
Not what we do that turns the heart Of sinners to their Lord and God, It's what we are that makes them see That through His blood we can be free
For many seek To Balance Sin With works of good and Righteousness But their best strength it cannot show That perfect Love of God to man.
In humble Love He came to serve The lowest meanest sons of men But naught of Earth reveals how great Like Jesus Washing Judas' feet.
For Sin is pride and pride is sin And self is at the root of all We cannot be a 'little Christ*' While these still hold us in their thrall.
Paul said, "....a living sacrifice...." Alone can show the Father's will For entering into this high call Makes then our flesh His truth fulfill Go then like Him Take up Your cross In service to the undeserved, And just like Jesus humbly bow To wash the feet that tread on you.
*The term Christian literally means ‘Little Christ’ or ‘Christ-like’. It was first applied to the believers as an insult by the pagans of First century Antioch thus identifying them as children of a deity so weak and unworthy that he was shamed and humiliated before the world by being Crucified.
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Post by scintor on Jul 17, 2008 0:36:28 GMT -5
Wow, what a topic!
Pride, fear and envy (your feelings of entitlement) are three of the biggies for the roots of sin, but there are others like sloth and rebeliousness and there are many combinations of and gradiations between them (and there are probably more that I have forgotten.)
But I am interested in you thoughts about contentment being an antidote to sin. I find that these days that I am content about most things, and this makes me stronger against most temptations, except one: Sloth.
I have a real difficulty geting myself motivated to go out and do anything outside my cosy little world like going to church and reaching out to anyone else ( this may have something to do with my absense lately.)
On the other hand, the few things that cause discontent within myself are the ones that cause me the most trouble in my life. Thinking about the things that I am discontent with while reading this discussion has given me a lot to think about what I could do to be a better Christian, husband, father, friend, etc.
The last thing that I want to say is to expand on Teskas idea of transparency. I have found that one of the best ways to keep sin from getting ahold on you is to stop hiding it. Admitting it to not only God but to your Christian brothers and sisters and others around you is a great way to destroy its control. Sin is described as a stain, and this stain keeps God's light from reaching you. Ther enemy tells us that exposing our sin will leave us vulnerable, but it actually makes us stronger against attacks. Strangely enough, we not only recieve the light more clearly by admitting our sins and weaknesses to others, we also reradiate it to those around it and strengthen those around us who are also struggling.
Scincerely,
Scintor@aol.com
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Post by newburydave on Jul 20, 2008 17:23:09 GMT -5
Hi Scintor;
The way I read in my Bible contentment when it is married to Godliness is great gain, that is it one of the goals of Christian living.
By itself, as you observed, contentment can be a snare. If we get content with ourselves we stop striving to be more like Jesus. That would be a spiritual disaster. You mentioned neglecting our part of the great commission. That is one ministry that we are all supposed to be actively involved in at all times.
I think too many times we fall into thinking like the Pharisee and look at sins as a catalog of evil actions "Father I thank thee that I don't ....(fill in the nastyness)" but Jesus talked as much or more about sins of omission as well, "Unless you take up your cross and follow me you cannot be my disciple." (ie. only Jesus disciples go to heaven).
In fact His only truly new commandment to us was a positive duty to "Love each other as I have loved you." We neglect that at our peril. Christlike Passion is required to be a Christian.
James goes so far as to say that true religion which is not corrupt is that we relieve the needs of the widows and orphans (the helpless) in their desolation and affliction and at the same time keep ourselves unspotted by the moral pollution of the sinful world around us.
The root of sins makes an interesting and potentially useful speculative discussion but I think that a more useful discussion is what is the working definition of sin and what is the opposite of sin.
We don't want to sweep out the house and leave it unoccupied lest seven other devils worse than the first come in to abide. We need to be filling our hours with the habits of Godly actions to avoid falling back into sin.
After dealing with this question from the pulpit and outside of the pulpit for more than 25 years I've come to the conclusion that in general every act of sin or sin of omission is a violation of Christlike Love.
Jesus came to earth for several reasons, one was to fill the meaningless Greek word Agape with meaning in shoe leather. Prior to Jesus life Agape was just an ideal form that was both ethereal and practically meaningless. It was meaningless because fallen man had never seen it in flesh. The Greek gods were nothing but deified sinful lusts. Maybe some of the Hebrew prophets had glimpses of the reality but most of them just saw the Law, and didn't understand it.
Jesus life filled that form with meaning. He perfectly showed us how Agape love looked in shoe leather (or sandals) on the dirt roads where we live. Then He said go and love all men the same way He did. Since we have the record of His life we know how to do it. WWJD
The working definition of Godliness is being like God in His character, which is Christlike perfect Love. So that kind of deals with all the sins of commission as well as the sins of omission.
IMHO this kind of covers the waterfront.
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