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Post by Jeff Gerke on Jun 30, 2008 22:01:21 GMT -5
Paul says it is--twice--so it must be true.
Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry. (Colossians 3:5, italics mine)
...and...
For this you know with certainty, that no immoral or impure person or covetous man, who is an idolater, has an inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. (Ephesians 5:5, italics mine)
So, the question isn't whether or not greed is idolatry. The question is how that can be so.
Any thoughts?
Also, pull in Christ's admonition to be on our guard against every kind of greed, for even when one has an abundance, his life does not consist of his possessions (Luke 12:15). Does that apply, and in what way?
Jeff
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Post by mongoose on Jun 30, 2008 23:19:58 GMT -5
A. Greed is TOO much desire for stuff B. Idolatry is Worship of anything other than God C. TOO much desire for anything is worship of the thing If A B & C, then Greed is Idolatry.
*shrugs* It's how I figure it.
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Post by rwley on Jul 1, 2008 8:24:16 GMT -5
Yes, greed is that unnatural, unhealthy obesessive desire for something which is in effect worship of that thing. The person who is greedy, does pretty much whatever they want to get that object. It also bypasses faith.
Faith says "God will provide. I have what is sufficient because this is what God has given.
Greed says "I need that, above anything and I must do anything to get it because that is the only thing that will satisfy me and complete me."
If we get greedy, we forget God's provision. It doesn't matter if it's for material things, or food, or power, or influence, or property, or widgets. Greed makes us seek that one "whatever" that we have decided to put above all other "whatevers"; that is idolatry.
Robi
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Jul 1, 2008 8:32:32 GMT -5
I agree, Mongoose and Rwley.
I think what I'm heading toward here is a modification of your points.
I'm coming to believe that greed is simply the desire for more of something--anything, maybe not even money or material things. And it becomes idolatry when I believe that having more of that thing will make me happy and content.
If I could only get a few more key people to like me and say I'm a good person...
Is that greed? I think so, because I'm wanting more of something than what I have.
Is it idolatry? I think so, because I'm expressing my belief--my faith--that if I were to get more of that thing, I would be satisfied. I would be at peace. I would have all my needs met. I would be supplied with what I need to exist in satisfaction. Sounds like a religious statement to me.
If I could just get published by a real publishing company...
Greed? Possibly, yes. Because I'm saying I need more X to be happy. More, more, more! More than what I have. What I have now is insufficient. Must...be...published.
Idolatry? Possibly, yes. Because I'm implying that if I were to get more X I would be in a state of satisfied bliss.
Now, let me hasten to say that it's not wrong to want to be published! And it's not necessarily idolatry to want it. And it's not necessarily wrong to be dissatisfied with something or the absence of something.
Going to school to get a degree to get a better job to better take care of a family is not greed or idolatry. At least, it probably isn't. It could be. The point is that it isn't necessarily wrong just to want more of certain things, even money. It's about motives.
I'm very interested in Jesus' statement in Luke 12. He urges us to be on our guard against every form of greed. Every form? You mean whether we want more hundred dollar bills or more thousand dollar bills, Jesus? How many forms are there?
That's where I'm finding my mind opening. Greed has to include anything we say we need or need more of before we can be content. "Every form of greed" has to include materialism, lust, many forms of ambition, and "the desire for other things" (Mark 4:19).
It is in the act of looking to the accumulation of something to finally make us content that it becomes idolatry. Because only God brings the peace of God.
It's been really astonishing for me to look at certain issues in my life and see them as greed. What? Greed? I'm fine with how much money I have or am making. We are living lives that are far from extravagant (though those in many third world countries would certainly disagree). But, honestly, how can I be accused of greed?
But to see it as greed when I feel I need something--or more of something--in order to be happy...it's an eye-opener.
When Jesus said to be on guard against every form of greed He went on to tell a parable (Luke 12:16ff). If it were me, I would've told a parable about how it's better to be content with what you have, or maybe to show someone who gets all the riches he could ever desire and finds himself miserable.
But that's not how the Master Teacher handles it. No, Jesus tells a parable about a guy who becomes fabulously wealthy--and is finally content!
This rich man's error wasn't that he sought satisfaction in wealth (well, that may have been one of his errors, but it wasn't the one Jesus was talking about). His error was that his mind was all on this world. His treasure was all here on earth.
He had so much wealth he could've given some away to the poor--and thus gained some treasure in heaven. Sending it forward, as it were. But instead he decided to build bigger barns to keep it all for himself. Because his treasure was all here, kept in those bright new barns, it was all left here when his soul was taken by death.
So how does that relate to us here? We, who often seek to be made happy by achieving just a little more...something...here on earth.
Greed in all its forms. What forms does greed take in your life? I know what forms it takes in my life. Or I'm discovering them, anyway.
Any time we believe we need just a little more X to be happy, isn't that saying God that didn't give us enough and therefore we need to have the balance filled up by other means? Isn't that idolatry?
Our heart is where our treasure is. And vice versa.
We cannot serve two masters. We'll either end up believing God will be the source of our contentment or we'll end up believing that getting more X will finally provide contentment.
In a way, greed is the signal flare sent up to show us where we're worshiping at other temples besides the throne of grace.
Your thoughts?
Jeff
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Post by rwley on Jul 1, 2008 10:35:18 GMT -5
Anything that is not God-centered is idolatry in some form. If God is not first and foremost, then we worship something other than God. The essence of the 1st commandment; "You shall have NO OTHER gods before Me." If we truly worship God, we should have no desire for anything else to fulfill our needs, wants, hopes, desires, goals, etc. Only God is the source of our completeness and contentment and peace. BTW, I ain't there yet Robi
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Post by strangewind on Jul 1, 2008 10:56:09 GMT -5
Greed is good.
"Greed, for lack of a better word, is good. Greed is right. Greed works. Greed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit. Greed, in all of its forms, greed for life, for money, for love, knowledge has marked the upward surge of mankind." - Gordon Gecko in Wall Street.
No better hymn to greed has been sung, and none more clearly delineates the boundary between worship of the One, and worship of nothing.
His speech on greed is an antithesis to the warnings of Christ, a faith pure in its methods, and corrupt to the core in its aims.
Greed consumes the soul until, eventually it becomes the man, and the man reforms himself in the image of greed.
That's how I understand its "many forms" in my limited scope.
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Post by torainfor on Jul 1, 2008 10:58:46 GMT -5
thefreedictionary defines greed as: "An excessive desire to acquire or possess more than what one needs or deserves, especially with respect to material wealth."
wikipedia says: "the selfish desire for or pursuit of money, wealth, power, food, or other possessions, especially when this denies the same goods to others."
I still say there is a distinct difference between greed (selfish, excessive) and God-given desire. Very often God implants the works He has prepared for us beforehand (Eph. 2:10) as desires in our hearts. When we place those desires (or more fleshly ones) in a position where they have control over us, that's where we get into trouble.
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Jul 1, 2008 11:17:55 GMT -5
LOL--I thought you'd comment on this, torainfor. I had you in mind when I gave my disclaimer that there's nothing wrong to want to be published or to want "more" of something if your motives are right.
Good comments, everyone else, too.
Jeff
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Jul 1, 2008 13:41:29 GMT -5
I think where I'm going with this is that greed is the marker for something deeper going on in the heart.
"For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, slanders" (Matthew 15:19).
I guess I'm saying that greed (in any of its grasping, self-medicating forms) is the reaction to a heart belief that you have not been given what you deserve. "Hey, I've been deprived. It's time for me to get back some of what I should've been given in the first place."
Notice how all roads lead back to this for me. Are we in group psychoanalysis, or what? For you the root issue might be fear or pride or, as myrthman says, simply missing the mark. But for me it's this.
As soon as I believe I've been shorted, I start trying to make up the difference.
This was the root problem when it came to me feeling accepted. Search for Significance helped me see that I believed I was a cup with a hole in the bottom. I had to keep filling it up because it had a slow leak. God used that book to show me that I was a cup with no leak, that I already had everything I thought I had to go out and get. It changed my life.
But now it looks like God is showing me I have other areas in which I believe I'm insufficient. And He's conveniently rigged it so that each one of these is signaled by greed. Wherever I'm grasping to get more of something, that's where I'm thinking I've been shorted. That's where I think I have a hole. And that's where I need God once again to show me that there is no hole.
Because in whatever area I feel deprived, in that area I am vulnerable to temptation.
Okay, analysis session is complete (for now).
Jeff
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Post by mongoose on Jul 1, 2008 21:55:52 GMT -5
Whatever it's called, and whether it's the root of things or merely a symptom, we see what Jesus is telling us, I think. We need to be focused on Him and His Kingdom above all other things.
We all have this suspicion, however, that the Bible's not telling us to forsake all else. That there are many worthy goals. That there needs to be balance in our lives. We aren't called to be monks or hermits, or we wouldn't be registered at "wherethemapends" and we wouldn't be trying to get our books published. We're pursuing excellence, "for the glory of God" of course.
Someone said that God puts desires for good things, such as excellence or achievement into our hearts. I agree, and I'm pretty sure there's Scriptural backup for the concept. We ARE to reach for bigger, better things. The motivations therefore might be somewhat selfish (glory, recognition, pride, etc.) but I don't think these things condemn us. After all, if that were the case, and if God's grace didn't cover that, we'd all be burning in Hell after being zapped on Earth. We're all guilty of selfish motives for various deeds that would, otherwise, be good.
If I'm right about that assertion, I think God must be okay with our being a little selfish, as long as we control those inclinations and harness them to motivate us to the excellence for which he gave us the desire to begin with.
I see a mountain. I want to climb it. I'll do whatever it takes to climb it. I'll be pretty thrilled when I succeed. Is this wrong? I don't think so. Is my motivation wrong? I doubt it. I'm pretty sure God put that within me. Now, if my life and happiness depended entirely upon my summitting mountains, then yes, my mountaineering becomes an idol to me. If anything gets more of my attention than God, I believe it becomes an idol to me. We have to be especially careful of this as authors, because we do tend to zone in on our stories and characters and plots etc. and zone everything else out, sometimes including God. Yet write we must. God's put the stories in our hearts.
Which raises the question of what we're to do to achieve this elusive balance we believe we're supposed to have, but don't find too often in the world, in our churches, or in Scripture.
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Jul 2, 2008 8:04:31 GMT -5
There are (at least) two kinds of pride: pride that equates to arrogance and pride meaning the good feelings related to a job well done.
I think God has built the second kind into us. It's akin, I suppose, even to the good feelings, if you will, that God felt when He completed each phase of creation: "Ah, now that's good." It's the arrogance kind that gets us in trouble.
That's an important distinction, I think. In English, we use the same word for both kinds. But certainly they're not the same in God's mind.
It's definitely true that God's grace covers us when we sin, even sins of arrogant pride, but that's not the same as saying "God is okay with us being a little selfish." Not if by that you mean He gives our selfishness a wink and a go-ahead. Everything is permissible, but not all things are beneficial. Many things lead to slavery and death.
And yet, is there no room for preferences? Is it selfish to ask for your favorite kind of soft drink when water would suffice? To enjoy a steak dinner when bread would've accomplished the same purpose?
I think God is not offended when we exert our preferences, so long as we are not sinning as we do so. If that's what you mean by God being okay with a certain amount of selfishness, if we can call it that, then maybe I'd be inclined to agree, though I would prefer another wording.
Back to my previous message. In my thinking about greed--in all its forms--I have come to what is at this moment the central question for myself:
Am I operating out of a place of lack or a place of plenty?
If I'm working from a place of lack on a given subject, if I believe I don't have enough, then I'm going to be reacting to that. I'm going to be trying to fill up what is lacking. And that's a recipe for sin.
But if I believe I'm working from a place of fullness--from a cup that does not have a hole in its bottom--then I'm going to behave much differently. I won't mind when someone cuts in front of me in line. I won't be tempted to garner a little extra for myself on the side. I won't find my mind or my gaze straying where it shouldn't. Why? Because I already have enough of that. More than enough. I'm good, thanks.
"God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that always having all sufficiency in everything, you may have an abundance for every good deed" (2 Corinthians 9:8).
"Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ" (Ephesians 1:3).
We have an abundance. We're full. We're overflowing with every spiritual blessing.
We're operating from a place of fullness, not of lack. As such, we don't need to grasp around us to fill up what is lacking, because nothing is lacking.
I don't know about you, but I think if I came to believe this in all parts of my life (please, Lord, make it so) I might actually not be vulnerable to temptation. Is my logic sound?
I'm not talking about Wesley's sinlessness, but oh to have these thunderous voices of temptation gone from my ears!
And all because I simply switch my belief. I cease believing the Serpent's lie that God withheld the good stuff from me and I have to take it back myself, and begin believing the Creator's truth that He continuously fills me with every spiritual blessing in Christ.
Jeff
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Post by rwley on Jul 2, 2008 9:41:59 GMT -5
"Operating from a place of fullness". I like that. And yes, I think that's the place we should all try to reach. Wanting steak and soda instead of bread and water is not wrong unless you steal that steak and soda from someone else or obtaining that steak and soda for yourself denies your children bread and water.
Pride in a job well done is not wrong. Hubris is wrong. God wants us to have enough self confidence and self assurance to want to do our best at everything. But He wants us to do it to His glory, not our own.
He wants us to learn to be content with whatever He provides, trusting that He will provide all we need. If He provides us with "just enough" we are still to share with others as we can, and sometimes even if we think we can't. If He provides with abundance, He definitely expects us to share out of that abundance. Nothing we are given by the Father is to be hoarded.
I've come a long way just in the past year on this very subject. God has allowed us to come to a place where we are dependent on Him for absolutely everything from the mortgage payment to today's dinner. We are truly living day to day with no promise of tomorrow. In that place of dependency, He is slowly bringing me to a place of contentment. I am getting to the point that it really doesn't matter to me that our income is minimal. I don't need cable, or internet, or A/C, or even my own car. Our A/C broke last month and we can't afford to fix it. Our car has issues such as can't pass an inspection and we can't afford the insurance so I'm driving my father's truck. We have no cable TV, no internet or phone at home and the grocery budget is well, there. But in the middle of all this, I'm happy! I really am. God has been paying the bills for well over a year now, and if He wants us to let the house go and do something else, I'm good with that. I don't know where He's taking us, but it doesn't matter. Where He wants me is the only place I want to be.
All this to say, God is sufficient. He really is. I only need what He provides because He provides all I need. And the more we are in the position, I find that I'm actually wanting less. I have what I need, and I really don't want anything more than what He is providing. It's a weird feeling, too. To be happy when circumstances say I should be stressed and worried and angry and scared and unsure and all those other sould destroying negatives, but I'm really not. Most of the time. Yeah, it creeps in now and then, but it's not debilitating and it's not constant.
That's where God wants us. Dependent on Him and happy to be there. Operating from fullness. What a place. What a journey.
What's next?
Robi
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Jul 2, 2008 9:57:43 GMT -5
Wow, what a testimony, Robi. Yikes.
This morning I found a Bible phrase I like. It's in Ephesians 3:19--"Filled with the fullness of God." That's where we want to be. Indeed, it's where we are. God isn't the depriver of what we need. He's the ultimate Giver, the Filler. The Filler and Giver of the fullness of God.
I look around in my life at the many areas where I've been feeling a lack, and I say, "No, I'm not lacking there. I'm filled with the fullness of God in that area."
I realize I've been wanting a certain group to like me. That's an expression of lack: I don't have their approval and I need it. Not. I'm filled with the fullness of God in that area. If they never change their opinion, so what? I have all I need.
I realize I've been taking extra "me time" at home, thinking I need more and more of it to feel filled up. That's an expression of my belief that I haven't been given enough of what I'm due. No, I'm filled with the fullness of God in that area.
I'm not saying we shouldn't enjoy recreation, or that we should look at real need (like bills to be paid or a bleeding wound) and shake the "I'm filled with the fullness of God" wand at it. But I'm saying many if not most of my sins are the result of me believing I'm lacking something, when in reality I already had the fullness of God. Changing my glasses helps me see the world aright.
Jeff
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Post by mongoose on Jul 2, 2008 21:07:24 GMT -5
I'll have to catch up later, but for now, just this:
I'm not locked into the use of the word "Selfishness," or any other word for any other concept, for that matter. I would, however, like to know what word describes the concept in other people's minds, and how they consider said concept.
In this case, I'm refering to the concept that I don't have enough achievement in my life, I haven't bagged that peak yet, so I'm going to go for it until I get it. I believe this is a good thing. I'm not content, which we tend to think we should be. Yet, if I were content with my current record, I wouldn't train to bag yet another peak. I wouldn't achieve greater things. So what motivates us to achieve those things if it is not something akin to greed, or selfishness, or lack, of some sort or other? Is there a better term for it? Is it really a good thing, or am I just off?
And I don't like the cup analogy, though I suppose it works. People say, "God, I'm empty! Fill me up." Then they grow a little and say, "God, I'm full. Pour me out." I say, "Cancel the filling up and pouring out. Just make me a pipe with one end under the faucet, and the other pointing toward those in need of the water."
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Jul 3, 2008 7:59:17 GMT -5
A word you might use is "ambition."
I had a lot of that early in my career. I'm not sure it was a bad thing, but I do know I was less mature and confident and felt I needed to achieve certain things to make my mark or prove something to myself and/or the world. As I say, I'm not sure that was wrong, but as I look back on it now, I'm not sure it was all correct. Of course it's easy to say that when I'm on the other side of it.
As I look at things I'm attempting now, I don't think I'm approaching them with the same flavor of ambition--or even with ambition at all, in the same sense as before.
Why am I doing Marcher Lord Press? Is it to impress people or prove something to myself? No. It's to provide something I feel is worthy and currently unavailable widely. That's a form of discontentment, as someone pointed out previously (or else I wouldn't feel the need to do anything about it), but I don't feel like my motives are the same as the motives I had 15 years ago.
Jeff
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