How Is Greed the Same as Idolatry?

[Divides the Waters]

Jul 1, 2008 10:35:18 GMT -5 rwley said:

Anything that is not God-centered is idolatry in some form. If God is not first and foremost, then we worship something other than God.

The essence of the 1st commandment; "You shall have NO OTHER gods before Me."

If we truly worship God, we should have no desire for anything else to fulfill our needs, wants, hopes, desires, goals, etc. Only God is the source of our completeness and contentment and peace. Robi

I'm not sure I fully agree with this statement, although I am with you in general principle.

God gave us natural desires that are not focused on his invisible and frequently silence omnipresence, and that doesn't make them idolatrous. He gave us a sustaining earth, and other people for relationships, and countless other things that are not in and of themselves focused on him.

I look at it more like someone holding a compass. Just because your needle points north doesn't mean that you are sinning by going any other direction. It means that you have set your guiding principle correctly, and may then wander or explore with confidence. If your spiritual compass points Due God, the rest of your orientation will naturally fall into place, and you will navigate life as you should. But if your spiritual compass points at any of the other things you've mentioned, it ruins your ability to find your way. Idolatry is putting other things before God, yes, it is worshipping other things than God, yes (and you can worship anything--it doesn't have to be Molech, the god hungry for the blood of children--it could be Desperate Housewives, the internet, whatever), but I'm not sure that the main point is that we should think of nothing but God in our physical lives. When we started making plans to move, we didn't say, "Well, here's what we need, now You provide it." We asked for God's direction, his wisdom, and providence, and help in any and every regard, but we really had to do a lot of that work ourself! Where God helped, it was obvious, but I think that any expectation of miraculous intervention regarding mundane issues would have been unrealistic.

I realize that this is not what you were saying, but I wanted to make an extreme example (a sort of inverse "God helps those who help themselves") to set up for my next heresy, and that is that there are certain needs that cannot be met by God alone.

Christ tells us that man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. This is clearly speaking of the dual nature of life; the need for physical and spiritual sustenance. One can be provided for by us (and should be--remember "he who does not work, does not eat"?), and one cannot. On that same token, are there relationships that fulfill needs that cannot be met through purely spiritual means? Clearly. Are there common necessities that will not be met if I don't go out and get them? Yes. Does that mean that I am somehow neglecting God if they are sometimes foremost in my thoughts, or if I do not expect God to fulfill those things in my life? I don't think so. I think that would turn to idolatry when, for instance, physical desire turns to all-consuming lust, or natural hunger turns to gluttony.

One of the things I get out of scripture is that moderation is due any physical thing. There is too much of a good thing, and that generally leads to some sort of perversion. If greed and obsession are part of the same tree, then it could be said that any obsessive or overwhelming compulsion is idolatry, whether the search for more money (a.k.a. power), or anything else that robs God of his proper place.

[scintor]

Jul 2, 2008 9:41:59 GMT -5 rwley said:

" Wanting steak and soda instead of bread and water is not wrong unless you steal that steak and soda from someone else or obtaining that steak and soda for yourself denies your children bread and water.

I would add a concept her that I got from CS Lewis Screwtape Letters. He called it a form of Gluttony, although I think that greed applies here as well. Wanting steak and soda instead of bread and water is not wrong as long as you can go without steak and soda if you need to. Lewis speciffically applies it to people "have to have their tea just so in order to drink it." (paraphrase) In my own life I have tried to ask myself if I can accept what is available rather than to long for what is out of reach.

Scincerely,

[e-mail]

[rwley]

Divides; I wasn't suggesting one sit around on one's thumb and demand that God drop everything in their lap. Not at all. And I think you saw that. Yes, of course we go out and work and pay our bills and provide just as we're supposed to. I guess what I was saying was that we need to come to a point where we can distinguish between "WANT" and "NEED". I need a house, not a mansion. I need a car, not a limo. Those are extremes, but why buy a $250,000 house when a $100,000 will do. Do you really need 3500 sq feet? Can you live in half that? Most of the time the answer is yes. Do you have to have that brand new SUV every two years? Do you have to have top of the line, every add-0n gadget? As long as it runs, is safe, and holds the whole family, who cares about all the other stuff? If God has seen fit to bless your efforts and you have scads of money after you take care of the basics, great! Make good use of it, don't be selfish. If God has seen fit to bless your efforts with just enough to get to next pay day, great! Make good use of it, don't be selfish.

It is this that, IMO, keeps us out of idolatry. We have what we need and need what we have. The extras are great, but not necessary and we don't find ourselves worrying into a frenzy or scrabbilng up that ladder so we can go get those extras.

We're about to put our house on the market. We're going to be cutting every expense and debt that we have to the best of our ability over the next year so we can take off half way around the world. We do not have the money, nor the means to obtain the money on our own to do all this. We need to depend on God to bring people forward who will be willing to help us. We will do all we can, of course. Sell our house here. Sell our lot in New Mexico. But God still has to provide the rest. If we were not willing to give up the few things we have here, I don't think God would be as likely to provide through His grace. We have determined that we don't NEED all we have. We don't need a lot of things. We need to be in God's will. The rest is just gravy.

Does any of this make sense?

Robi

[newburydave]

1Co 10:31
(31) So whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God.

Mat 6:32-34
(32) These things dominate the thoughts of unbelievers, but your heavenly Father already knows all your needs.
(33) Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and live righteously, and He will give you everything you need.
(34) "So don't worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will bring its own worries. Today's trouble is enough for today.

It seems to me that greed is rebelling against this admonition and doubting either God's good-will to us or His ability to provide for us. Both of those thoughts are blasphemous. After dissing God, we try to become our own providence; thus we become our own gods.

Whatever we do must pass the test of "Will this bring glory to God or someone else?"

Greed makes us concentrate on this world, Serving the Creation instead of the Creator.

[lexkx]

No one has yet mentioned the story of Jesus and the rich young ruler. When the young man asked about the kingdom of heaven, Jesus rattled off half the 10 Commandments. The ones that were easy to judge by outward standards. When the young man said, "All these I have kept from my youth," the version in Mark says that Jesus looked at him and loved him. Jesus knew both what the young man was asking and why the rich young ruler knew that these outwardly righteous acts were not enough. Most people teach that when Jesus replied that all he needed to do was sell everything and give the money to the poor, Jesus was hitting the young man between the eyes with covetousness, the last commandment. I think Jesus knew that the possession of wealth and the pursuit of it were stumbling blocks for the young man. It was a confrontation of compassion, exposing to the young man where he honestly directed his worship.

Jesus didn't call everyone to leave everything behind. Only the ones for whom the possession of "stuff" was an issue. For some people, the two nickels in their pockets are a struggle. For others, they can have ambitions and cars and storehouses without a qualm. It's almost more of a question "What do you want first?" rather than "What do you want most?"