When is a Believer safe from themselves?

[knightofhyn]

This is a difficult question, one I struggle with in my own novel attempt...I say attempt cause it's not published yet...

In this we have Hunter, a reluctant prophet (scared to even admit that he's a prophet, he knows what happens if someone takes soemthign he says as prophesy and it's wrong). A new friend (actually a new believer) in his life falls in with a cult who play on her desire to belong and her need to be loved and he has to try to help her see the light.

Very, very rough, but it's the core of the problem that some have had when reading it. Tabitha is a new believer, but a few days later, falls in under the influence of Philip, a compelling leader in a cult, who convinces her in her spiritual infancy that his church worships God, too, just differently. Some said that she should know better, but I ask how she woudl know better. If she had only been to church a handful of times, how would she know?

Obviously this is a spiritual warfare novel and I hope to present it to MLP at some point, but am I addressing this appropriately? Is there some other way I should present it?

If it helps, I had the idea for a trilogy based on the idea of the Parable of the Seeds. Tabitha is the seed sown in the shallow or rocky soil (no roots), another character in book 2 the seed sown in the weeds (beset by attackers to the faith), and a third character in book 3 the seed that falls to the wayside (the one that the crow takes away, that doesn't bear fruit or grow at all).

Just let me have it, I can take it!

[rwley]

New believers are some of the most susceptible to cults and "almost" right beliefs. They know just enough to be dangerous to themselves and sometimes to others. I think it's extrememly plausible that she would fall sway to a smooth-talking con-man who could use her lack of knowledge against her. He knows how to use the right words to make her feel that he is right.

I like the idea of the trilogy based on the Seed Parable. Very rich in plot and character possibilities. Sow on!!

Robi

[knightofhyn]

Glad the idea has support. I wondered if I wasn't stretching too much for that one.

Here's the fun part. Philip and Hunter are interesting counters to each other. Philip, cult leader, strong, confident, a warrior. Hunter, "backrow Baptist", quiet, strong but afraid of his own strength, trained in martial arts but generally unwilling to act. Both have skills and differing wills to use them. Both have connections to the spiritual world, as it were. Hunter is an unwilling prophet, Philip has the ability to compel and several abilities that mimic prophesy.

Of course, I always thought that that was what psychics were, Satans attempt to mimic God's prophets.

Do you think that it's too much to believe that she would be susceptible to his ability? His compulsion? He's not a vampire and I know that word is often used with them, so I hesitate to use it, but mind control sounds like something from a bad 50's scifi movie.

The input is appreciated!

[mongoose]

Mind control is simple, and is used quite often by many people, to a greater or lesser extent.

I agree, in theory, that many psychics are using whatever information the enemy gives them, and passing it off as being from God. Most, however, are simply very perceptive and discerning psychologists. You can pick up a great deal just by watching people's body language, listening to the nuances in their answers to simple and obvious questions, and extrapolating from there. You get a picture, or profile of the subject/patient/counselee/whatever, and make a few assumptions. Based on those assumptions, you start to ask leading questions, which they answer as expected, and you lead them to come to the conclusions you planned for them all along. It's also called diplomacy, some of the time, and I often use it to motivate my clients and co-workers to do what they ought to be doing. It doesn't necessarily require any spiritual intervention, but God does sometimes give us supernatural knowledge or wisdom concerning a person's situation, allowing us to go deeper than we normally could.

It's not mind control in the strict, 50s Sci Fi sense, but that's just the logical extreme version of what I often do, and what good psychologists or psychics often do. If I can lead a person who's in full control of their faculties to conclude what I want them to, what could I do with a person after wearing them down through deprivation of food, sleep, human contact, temperature control, time keeping mechanisms, or whatever? Add to that subliminal messages, saturation with some particular stimuli, and a leader who's even more charismatic and spiritually powerful than myself, and you can string people along wherever you want as though you had a string through their nose.

BTW, for some spiritual warfare fiction that I really enjoyed, read Ted Dekker's books, especially "Heaven's Wager."

Or for someone who got out of a cult, check out "Skin" I think that's the one. Not my favorite of his books, but it does give some attention to some of the issues that the character has to deal with as a result of having been in the cult.

[Divides the Waters]

Perhaps the real question is "Is a believer ever safe from him/herself?" Even the most experienced of us has blind spots and frailties.

[mongoose]

That's a great interview question: "What's in your blind spots?" If you say, "How would I know? they're in my blind spots!" I'll quickly file 13 your application.

[Divides the Waters]

Which raises another interesting question ... is it possible to know where your blind spots are without knowing what's in them?

When driving down the road, you know exactly where you don't want traffic to be, but that doesn't mean that you can see it ... that's the whole point of a blind spot. On the other hand, it should raise one to hyperawareness, trying to figure out if there's anyone or anything there.

Using the chink in the armor analogy: If you know you have a chink in your armor, you're foolish not to repair it before going into battle. Otherwise, you spend a lot of time compensating for the weakness, going to extra lengths to protect the vulnerable spot, etc. If you are unaware of it, on the other hand, you are quite likely to be caught off guard, and put out of commission very quickly.

[torainfor]

I can't find it but in one of Scott Adam's business books, he talks about a subtle form of mind control. If you want someone in your meeting to agree with you on a point that hasn't come up yet, you do things to make the sub-consciously think you're on their side. You can mimic their body posture--and follow them when they move an arm or lean over the table. You agree with what they're saying on another topic. Before long, you'll reach the point where you can shift the way you're sitting and they'll follow. Do that a couple of times, and supposedly, they'll be ready to agree to what you say.

[mongoose]

Thought just occurred to me about the blind spots. Most often, if people just take some time to honestly evaluate themselves, they'll find things they were blind to previously. Most people just never bother. It often hurts. We don't like the fears we find that motivate us (or pride, or selfishness, or lack, or whatever). As long as we have some kind of coping mechanism in the way, we don't have to acknowledge our weaknesses/sins. But if we go digging in ourselves, with or without the help of the Holy Spirit and/or others, we can find a lot of junk that needs to be remedied. There may still be other blind spots, but speaking in the past tense we can identify those we've already revealed and dealt with to the glory of God and blessing of ourselves and others.

[knightofhyn]

So it's possible the arrogance and naivety of the new believer could lead to a fall? Even one so far?

And everyone seems comfortable with this? Nice. I wondered if I'd gone too far.

[kirstymca]

Have just been re-reading a Biography called The Locust Years by Jacqui Williams. The girl was a new-ish Christian, from a non-Christian background, who, in less than three months, became convinced that Rev Sun Myung Moon was the Messiah.

[mongoose]

It would be hard to go too far. See books by Ted Dekker. And if it's so far that it won't fly through CBA, you can go elsewhere, right? Or self publish. What's the objective? Write something people like, write what'll sell, or write what's in your heart? Myself, I'll write what's in my heart, hopefully in a way that some people will get my point, and if it sells, great. If not, it's only my hobby anyway, so I won't have lost too much in the process.

[tris]

The length of belief isn't the root of the problem (so to speak), it's the depth of the belief. We've seen new Christians (just a few months) tackle cult leaders with a depth of wisdom that blows one's mind. And we've seen folks who've been Christians 30-40 years that still fall for half-truths, twisted lies and outright nonsense.
So, yes, your new believer could fall easily to someone manipulating her emotions, giving her just enough half-truth to raise doubts because she doesn't have all the answers (and feels she ought to if she really were a Christian).
If you want a crash course in mind control, watch the nightly news (any channel) and see how they sway audiences to their viewpoint with what they say and what they don't say.
As far as prophets go, please go back and look at biblical instances for a deeper understanding of a prophet's role. Very, very few actually did what we think of as prophecy (ie. this event will happen on this date in this way). The majority of the Old and New Testament prophets were called to deliver messages of what was right and wrong -- standards for conduct -- then given the daunting task of encouraging believers to live up to that standard. That is why prophets are so black and white in their thinking and why when misused, the gift looks more like slavish devotion to a set of rules. Used correctly, a prophet teaches 'here's the right way to live and here's how you do it."
Like apostles, teachers, evangelists, not all Christians are called to be a prophet. It is a most uncomfortable calling, easily misunderstood and often misused. Which is why God usually pairs a prophet with someone strong in mercy.
I don't think anyone would have a problem with the storyline you've set up knightofhyn. It's a good strong idea and unfortunately (or fortunately for your book) seen all too often in today's culture. Good luck!

[knightofhyn]

My concern is mainly realism. I want to write what's in my heart, but I want to make sure it's something that makes sense in a real way, not just makes sense while within the confines of the pages. I hate to read a character that I find myself saying, "That's stupid, who would do that?" I know, eloquent, but honest.

I like the idea that God pairs a prophet with someone strong in mercy. I'd done that with Hunter and Aurora anyway. She's the soft hearted one that can reach out to people and Hunter...well...fails miserably at that.

[Spokane Flyboy]

Sometimes it just helps to flesh out a dossier on a character. It's a practice I do for all my role play characters, and it's mostly background, but you develop a lot of personality in it, including quirks. Realism is a tricky thing though because reality is not always believable. I can't count how many times I've read headline news and said to myself, "Really?"