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Post by Jeff Gerke on Jul 24, 2008 10:16:01 GMT -5
Is it a sin to lie to evil people?
I've never had to struggle with this personally, but I've read about Christians in WWII who felt justified in lying to Nazis. This is a strange example, but I remember the nuns sabotaging the Nazis' car in The Sound of Music.
I know there's a quote about not owing the truth to someone who will use it for evil. I thought it was by Bonhoeffer, but I can't immediately find it.
As I said, I've never had to face such evil in human form, so I don't know what I'd do. The biblical prohibitions about lying are obvious and well known.
I began wrestling with this issue myself because of what I'm seeing as I read through Exodus this time.
I was troubled a bit by the Hebrew midwives lying to Pharaoh about the Hebrew women and the birth of the babies. It was an outright lie and defiance of authority, but God blesses and rewards these women.
Then when God calls Moses, He instructs Moses to go to Pharaoh and ask that the Hebrews be allowed to go on a 3-day journey to worship God and return, though context makes it clear He has no intention of bringing them back to Egypt.
So then I was really stumped. It's one thing for humans to come up with a lie and God to endorse it, but it's something else when the lie originates with God. There's no getting around it: God told Moses to lie to Pharaoh.
So it begs the question: when is it not a sin to lie? More to the point: when is it God's will to lie?
Who decides if someone may be "righteously lied to"? Is it only the likes of Pharaoh and Hitler? Teenagers think a "mean" teacher is a fascist--so can they righteously lie to him?
I would think a child faced with a pedophile would be justified in lying to him.
But what about when a Christian leader asks those under him to do something that one or more of his followers consider unethical?
Jeff
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Post by Divides the Waters on Jul 24, 2008 23:26:00 GMT -5
The Ten Commandments never tell us not to lie. They tell us not to bear false witness against a neighbor. That's a completely different thing. The Bible is rife with righteous men acting deceptively for a good cause. David and Joshua (think "spies" with the latter) come most immediately to mind, but I remember reading about quite a few. I'll list some scriptures as they come to me.
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Jul 25, 2008 7:33:34 GMT -5
And yet we have passages like Proverbs 6:16-19:
There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers.
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Post by rwley on Jul 25, 2008 8:22:51 GMT -5
The commandment given and even the passage you quoted in Proverbs seem to me to be warning against the type of lie that is used to intentionally damage someone; either physically or emotionally. Perhaps what you're talking about could be called righteous misdirection. Just as there is righteous anger, there can be a righteous lie; one that is used to misdirect or deflect evil. Does that mean we should make a practice of it? No, not at all. We should strive for the truth through our day. But at times, especially in some of the instances you dicussed earlier, the lie that is used to either protect the innocent or to misdirect evil in order to bring about righteousness is necessary.
I think, as with most sins, the motivation of the heart is to be carefully looked at. Why are you lying? Why are you hiding something from someone else? I don't believe that God will count it as sin against any of those who hid Jews and Christians from the Nazis. And I don't think we can objectively decide if someone is telling a righteous lie or not. We can only confess to God our own issues and ask Him to help us determine within ourselves whether or not our lie is righteous misdirection or a true malicious and self-serving lie.
I agree with you, though. A child faced with a pedophile or any other predator would be justified in lying to that individual. Teenagers on the other hand think all their teachers are fascists, so I don't think that comes under the same category.
Tough question. Tougher answers.
Robi
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Post by myrthman on Jul 25, 2008 10:16:36 GMT -5
In the NT we are instructed to submit to governing authorities. But if Congress passes a law that not only endorses abortion but insists on every second and subsequent pregnancy be clinically aborted, Christians would have a moral obligation to refuse this particular governance. We submit only so long as the government itself is in line with God's will. As soon as it steps out of line with God's will (as revealed in His Word), we are no longer obligated to submit to government. First and foremost is submission to God. Always.
All that said to say that some sins are acceptable in certain situations. Proverbs also says that no one despises a thief who steals to eat (David stole the showbread to feed his men while fleeing from Saul). IMO, lying, if necessary, is no different. I can't think of a scripture to support this opinion but one is coming to mind that might relate: "Do not cast your pearls before swine." There's my $0.02.
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Post by torainfor on Jul 25, 2008 11:15:07 GMT -5
Wow, does this thread make me noyvus. I can see all kinds of opportunities for slipping and sliding. (Can my M.I.L. be classified as an "evil" entity, justifying the occasional lie? I mean, blessed are the peace-makers, right?)
Although, I have wondered about this before. What about when God told Samuel to go down and anoint David? Samuel said, "Waitaminute, Saul's gonna know something's up." So God told him to say he was going to give an offering. That's dissembling, at least, if not outright deception.
I gotta believe that God will give an out to one of His followers. I think the Egyptian mid-wives were blessed because they saved the lives of innocent babies belonging to God's chosen people--in spite of their lies, not because of them. As for Moses and Pharaoh, I think God just put His cards out on the table: "Pharaoh, if you allow this, they'll come back." Of course, in His sovereignty, He knew Pharaoh would never go for it, so from His infinite perspective, it was a non-issue.
When we were in Kansas last, we went out with my husband's old friends. He wanted to show us his on-star-type car phone so he called his daughter. He messed around and asked if her father was home. She said yes, but he was unavailable. Yeah, I don't know where to go with this in regards to protecting kids. Except that, to an extent, the sin is on the parent who told them to lie.
I hate generalizing, in general, but I think there's two issues here. If an unbeliever is faced with something horrific and lies (or steals) to abate it, I think God will bless them for living out of what they know in the process of manifesting His truth. Babies shouldn't be killed; Jews shouldn't be killed; kids on the street shouldn't go hungry. Unbelievers are held to what they know.
Christians, though, that's another foot. I gotta believe He's either going to give us an out, or not. Job 13:15 - Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.
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Post by mongoose on Jul 25, 2008 18:42:40 GMT -5
And if He doesn't rescue us, still we will serve only him, we will not bow down to the demands of culture to sin, nor worship at the idol of self preservation.
I'm coming to the realization that there aren't any cut and dried answers to these questions. There's plenty of evidence in the Bible that can be taken one way or another, especially if we take proof texts out of context. But then there's the whole counsel of the whole Word of God to consider. In general I would say that the this councel is not that we should look at our actions, and look at the law, and try to justify ourselves "I wasn't bearing false witness!" or "It wasn't murder!" or "It wasn't the Sabbath day" or whatever. Rather, I think the counsel of God is to flee from sin and toward Godliness.
Like I said, I don't think there's any formula we can apply to determine if lying is Godly or not in any given situation. I do think we have two provisions, however, that can keep us from sinning if our heart is right. First, there's the specific guidance of the Holy Spirit of God. He walks behind us and tells us when to turn to the left or the right, so to speak. Are we listening? It would seem obvious to me that if God tells you to murder someone, He'll excuse you from the "Thou Shalt Not Murder," clause. Likewise with violations of any of His other laws, including that concerning lying, or bearing false witness if you prefer.
Second, based on my experience and a variety of scriptures, I believe that as we draw near to God He changes us to make us more like Him. He gives us our hearts and molds them into what He wants them to be. As a result we get to a place where we no longer have to ask these questions as often, but we just know what's right and wrong in any given situation. We feel about things the same way as God would, think about them in the same way that God would. Of course this isn't a complete transformation in this life, but we all know people who just seem to get it right more often.
For a time I would argue with myself or God about whether or not to, say, help the person in need. But now I'm to the point where it's just a given that I'm going to help them. I don't have to sit there and ask if God really wants me to. I think it can be this way with the harder questions as well, though it takes longer and becoming more like Christ before we can be confident in our judgement. In the meantime, if we don't know whether a given action is right in a given situation, or not, I think we can ask God and He will tell us by His Holy Spirit.
I remember a story told to us by an evangelist who had done some ministry at the college campus in Fairbanks, AK. There's a lot of demonic activity in Alaska, and sometimes it's more manifest in these areas where people still practice animism and such. He and a friend were walking up toward the campus when a vagrant beside the road caught their attention. He asked them what they were doing. The Holy Spirit told the minister that the man was demon posessed, and he answered the man, "Oh, nothing. Just walking."
I am confident that God equips us, one way or another, to do what is right in any and every situation that He puts us through (or allows us to go through, if you prefer.) Of course, it's up to us to take advantage of what He gives us and live righteously, by faith.
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Post by Divides the Waters on Jul 25, 2008 19:05:40 GMT -5
And yet we have passages like Proverbs 6:16-19: There are six things which the LORD hates, Yes, seven which are an abomination to Him: Haughty eyes, a lying tongue, And hands that shed innocent blood, A heart that devises wicked plans, Feet that run rapidly to evil, A false witness who utters lies, And one who spreads strife among brothers. Notice here the intent, and once again the stress on the false witness. I think Robi has it right on the proverbial money on this one.
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Post by scintor on Jul 25, 2008 23:25:13 GMT -5
It is an interesting idea. The Catholic church once condemned all actors because they lied to their audiences about who they were and what they were doing.
I think that this is one of the "strong meat" topics. We are always as Christians to do what is right. To a child, following the rules, no matter what is right. As adults, we know that there are times when the rules do not apply or need to be broken for the right thing to be done (i.e. speeding to the hospital with an injured person, etc.)
So, do we tell little children to break the rules when necessary? I know people who have because they are trying to give them their adult understanding. It usually doesn't work out well.
When we start our Christian walk, we need clear rules to show us the new path that we have set our feet upon. As we grow in knowledge and wisdom, we begin to see where the exceptions are and when they are appropriate. It is a very hard thing to have the wisdom to use these exceptions as they were intended rather than to use them as a loophole to do whatever I want.
Scincerely,
Scintor@aol.com
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Post by Divides the Waters on Jul 26, 2008 11:12:21 GMT -5
Well said, Scintor. I hate ditto posts, but ... ditto.
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Post by newburydave on Jul 29, 2008 0:04:47 GMT -5
Beloved friends, I think we are overlooking something very fundamental here. As Christians we are supposed to accurately portray and reflect the character and nature of God to the unbelieving world. Instead of asking, "How far over the line can I go and still get by?" we should be asking, "How close to the high standard that Jesus set can I live?".
Php 2:14-15 (EMTV) (14) Do all things without grumbling and disputing, (15) in order that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverted generation, among whom you shine as light bearers in the world,
Mat 5:14 (EMTV) (14) You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden.
Also consider the Golden Rule. How do you feel when someone lies to you? Does that bring glory to God in your heart?
As to the idea that there are not any clear proof texts on the subject of lying; I think I have to disagree with that. One of the scriptures that I have not seen mentioned in the discussion so far is a pretty clear proof text:
Rev 21:5-8 (NLT) (5) And the One sitting on the throne said, "Look, I am making everything new!" And then He said to me, "Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true." (6) And He also said, "It is finished! I am the Alpha and the Omega—the Beginning and the End. To all who are thirsty I will give freely from the springs of the water of life. (7) All who are victorious will inherit all these blessings, and I will be their God, and they will be My children. (8) "But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars—their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
When Jesus speaks of the Judgment then I always try to listen up. Because, people, that is the final exam that we all have to pass. It shows what we have to be in order to be genuine enough to qualify as a child of God when we punch out of this life into eternity. I mean are we measured up and transformed by grace to reflect the Fathers Image or are we still thinking and living like this corrupt world does.
Whateve else this says, it tells me that God is rigid enough to cast all liars into the Lake of Fire for eternity. Now to my infinitesimal mind that by itself is enough reason to hate even the appearance of any lying. I don't want to be in the number of those "all Liars" that are mentioned in the verse above. I don't see any wiggle here, he just says all liars. End of story.
Think of this; Jesus could have gotten off from being crucified if he had lied about being the Messiah. Are we not to follow his example?
The question that I have had to answer many times is this, "Is death or any earthly loss worse than the dishonor before God of being a liar?"
Another passage of scripture that I studied into for a preaching message this past spring touches on the issue of truthfulness:
1Jn 1:5-6 (KJV) (5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. (6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
The Greek word that John uses here in verse 5 for darkness literally means dimness, Obscurity.
Jameson Faucet and Brown has this to say about it:
no darkness at all — strong negation; Greek, “No, not even one speck of darkness”; no ignorance, error, untruthfulness, sin, or death. John heard this from Christ, not only in express words, but in His acted words, namely, His is whole manifestation in the flesh as “the brightness of the Father’s glory.” Christ Himself was the embodiment of “the message,” representing fully in all His sayings, doings, and sufferings, Him who is LIGHT.
In verse 6 John applies this to us and tells us that if we walk (live) in darkness then we are lying if we say we have fellowship with Christ. (since our hope of Glory is Christ within us [Col. 1:27] I don't believe that we can be saved and not have fellowship with him)
The word that John uses for darkness here is a different word, it literally means shadiness, as in obscurity[/b]. Now shadiness is exactly what deception is, (ie. a Shady character). One commentator I read translated it as Occult in the sense that the Moon Occults [or hides] the Sun in a Solar Eclipse. The connotations is this Occultation is hiding something in order to deceive.
I did a search using eSword (bible study freeware) and came up with this verse on the positive side.
Eph 4:15 (KJV) (speaking to Christian disciples in Ephesus) (15) But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
As I said in another thread about the root nature of sin, I am convinced that the root of sin is Unbelief. We don't really really believe God's revelation and that is why we find reasons to do other than what God says to do or not to do. We act out of Fear of Earthly consequences rather than total faith in God's word. We can't make the leap to believe that what he says is the highest good and only right standard of judgment.
Call me narrow minded, but I lived for Satan, all out, with both hands, for 22 years before Jesus saved me. When Jesus rescued me from that I made my motto "No compromise with Sin or Satan". I started walking in the narrow way because I know that Satan is a lot smarter than I am. Satan can argue rings around me and confuse/convince me of almost anything he wants to...until he runs up against something in the word of God. If it goes against what the lord says I take that particular piece of reasoning as the voice of Satan and I throw it out.
One last observation:
Personally, I feel that citing the example of the character flaws of Old Testament "heroes of the Faith" can be dangerous. When I was a young Christian my grandparents tried to talk me out of my faith for salvation and my believing the Bible literally by using the character flaws and moral lapses of the OT patriarchs. (I was the only believer in my family for years) Now, with the perspective of years, I think it's a testimony to God's grace that he could take people like the OT "saints", who were so terribly ignorant and morally flawed, and still work his holy will through them. But back then it rasied some real questions in my mind and troubled me.
Those people back then had some real problems; but now we are in Christ. We have God the Holy Ghost living in us to lead us into all truth and give us divine power to live right and love right. We have the limitless power of Gods Grace operating in our lives and our bodies.
The OT "heroes of the faith" didn't have access to any of these things. All they had was the Law of Moses (if that), raw grit and will power to try to overcome the carnal mind and the devil. Paul describes what that Pre-Pentecost brand of discipleship was like in the second half of Romans chapter 7. It was the dust of constant defeat. The only hope they had was in the effectiveness of the Temple Sacrifices to gain God's undeserved mercy for them.
But as Christians we now live in Chapter 8 of Romans. According to Peter we have greater and more precious promises through which we "can become partakers of the Divine nature and escape the corruption that is in this world" (2 Peter 1:4)
We should be doing a whole lot better than anything we read in the Old Testament or in the New Testament before Pentecost, so Aim Higher.
Hope this hepls someone.
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Post by torainfor on Jul 29, 2008 8:19:28 GMT -5
Yes. That's what I meant.
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Post by Divides the Waters on Jul 29, 2008 22:39:14 GMT -5
I don't see the question so much as "what can I get away with" as "when is it appropriate to deceive?"
Fans of Star Trek may remember the Kobyashi Maru scenario in The Wrath of Khan. It was a no-win scenario, one designed to see how one dealt with death. As the film pointed out, there are times when there is no good option. Do I hit the little old lady or the dog crossing the street? Do I tell the truth and sentence an innocent to death, or do I lie and say that I'm not hiding Jews in my house during the purges of WWII? To me, that hits more at the heart of the issue than simply asking what I can get away with. By holding ourselves to that highest standard, it should become clear to us when the principles of valuing life, etc. come before a mere desire not to lie.
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Post by themantheycallcris on Jul 31, 2008 1:20:41 GMT -5
Divides, I'm wondering if you know of any Scripture that supports your last post. I've heard that same case presented many times, but never with God's Word as it's foundation, only limited human reasoning. I personally disagree with that position. There is no sin a man can commit that did not put his savior on that cross. And the idea of a "higher good" taken to its fullest extent would have to come to the point of Jesus dying for sin anyway, which puts us back at nothing is worth that. the Scriptures newburydave posted were good to consider in this conversation. and as he pointed out the behaviour of men is not a justification for sin. the Bible says "let God be true, and every man be a liar" (and not that doesn't mean we should all lie ) and you can also see, as dave mentioned, that never is anyone commended by God specifically for commiting any sin (not even once), though He may reward them for other things they do in the circumstance that are righteous. also note that Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life, none comes to the Father except through me." truth, not lie, is the way to God, specifically truth in Christ. God does not need our lies for His will to be accomplished. i admit its easy for me to say let people suffer before lying (or any other sin), i'm not in that situation. i hope i would have the courage to do as my master bids me do, knowing that hurting my Lord is worse than any other hurt could ever be. i'm reminded of a line in a song (not that that gives any credence to the thought, just sharing something to think about)... "i don't want to lose the eternal for the things that are passing"
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Post by newburydave on Jul 31, 2008 16:29:17 GMT -5
As Jim Elliot said before he was martyred by the Auca's in Peru:
"It is wisdom to trade what we cannot keep for what we can never lose."
All the "greater goods" of this world perish with the using and are gone (trust me on that I've experienced it in spades this last few years) but the truth as it is in Jesus will never, never, never pass away.
"But now the faith and hope abides, But Love alone shall pierce the skies."
And unconditional Christlike Love, Don't never tell no lies.
Meditation on 1 Cor 13:13 with addendum
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