Is it a Sin To Lie to Evil People?

[Teskas]

I need to differ with you, Sabre3030, on the grounds that I have put forward. I would not kill a human being to prevent a sexual assault on a child.

Paedophilia is a great evil, but by the principles I have laid out, all our moral acts are intended to support life, and killing the paedophile would be contrary to that. The child victim of a paedophile can survive the assault, even though it is very terrible. With care and support the child can either overcome the trauma of the assault, or learn to live with its wound. It is to be preferred to support life by letting the attacker commit his assault, than to take away his life. At least this is my assessment of the matter.

However, if someone were to attempt to kill a child, and the only way to prevent this would be to kill the would-be assailant, it would be right to kill the perpetrator.

[Divides the Waters]

Disagree respectfully. I've seen firsthand the effects of child molestation and rape, and as far as I'm concerned, that kind of abuse is tantamount to murder, because the person that would have been, is no more. Sabre is talking about a specific situation, where killing the perpetrator is the only way to stop him. I say stop him by any means, up to and including death. If you allow it to happen because of the possibility of healing, you are essentially aiding and abetting (assuming, of course, that you have the means to stop said perpetrator in the first place). Again, it comes down to what I'd rather have to answer for. In the Nazi scenario, life or lie, I'd rather answer for the lie. In the pedophile scenario, I'd rather answer for the life. After all, the whole institution of justice is to punish the guilty and protect the innocent. I'm not so fond of keeping these people alive that I would mind answering to the law or the Lord on that one.

[The Blue Collared Philosopher]

wow! This fasinates me!

May i suggest: that there is no absolutly right answer to these questions. I believe that no matter what, if you are breaking God's law, then you are sinning. The question is, where can i cross the line? To kill someone is a horrible a thing to do, something i never want to do. But is it possible to sin and still be doing the right thing?

Just some questions, cuz i don't have an opinion about all this yet.

[JC Lamont]

If the only way to stop a pedephile from assulting a child was to kill him, yes I would do it. Without hesitation. For crying out loud, you are allowed to kill a burgler breaking in to your house (just not leaving).

The obvious assumption here is that we are allowed to kill someone who breaking into our house without even knowing if he was going to endanger our life or the lives of our family. We can kill him on the possibility that is what he is planning to do, when he may only be trying to take our 44 in plasma TV and isn't even armed.

So, if we can Biblically kill a burgler on those grounds, it is a very logical conclusion that we could kill a pedephile assulting a child.

[mongoose]

I can't get into this, so I'll just suggest a couple things.

It doesn't come down to what we'd rather have on our conscience. It comes down to what God tells us to do from moment to moment. If we ask Him, He will give us wisdom and direction, every time. We are faced with nothing that is not common to man, God will not allow us to be faced with anything beyond our abilities, He will always make a way out so that we can endure it, and His grace is sufficient to enable us to come through without sinning. Every time.

Violate one law, and you've violated all of the law. Lying is no less bad than murder, or pedophilia, or whatever.

Civil law says I can kill someone who breaks into my home. What did Jesus say about people who try to steal from me?

I don't think you ever have to kill someone to preserve someone else's life. See my comments, above, or PM me.

[The Blue Collared Philosopher]

Yes i completely agree with Mongoose on this one!

Crimsonmoon, i think there is just one problem with the whole scenario you set up, because there are very few, if any, situations where death is the only option.

So i must say, i completely agree with Mongoose, i don't think you ever have to kill someone to preserve someone elses' life.

[Jeff Gerke]

I wonder about that when I read news stories about police who shoot to kill instead of shooting to disable. I know they're trained that way, and it's probably best in terms of officer protection and even legal protection, but I wonder sometimes if a shot to the shoulder would resolve the situation just as well as a kill shot.

Jeff

[JC Lamont]

The Bible says we can kill someone breaking into our house. Regardless of what Jesus says about a thief, we don't know why the person is entering our house -- it could be to rape, kill, etc.

Therefore, if we can kill a person entering our house on the assumption that he may rape or kill, we can certainly kill a person raping a child in the alley. I'm not saying I would pull out a gun (I don't own a gun). But I certainly wouldn't stand there and wait till it was over, the perp got away, and then just tell the little girl all about Jesus' healing as I drive her to the ER.

I would grap the largest, heaviest thing I could find and bash him over the head with it. And if he died, o well. I would not feel guilty. I would not believe I sinned.

What did Jesus say about any who hurt a child -- they should never have been born. A rock should be tied around thier neck and they should be thrown into the bottom of the sea.

[torainfor]

You know it must be a good discussion if I have to get up and walk around for thirty minutes to cool off before I can respond!

Glad I did. I remembered a story I'd posted in my blog last December. Forgive all the writing errors.

The young man looked furtively over his shoulder at the car. He made sure the woman was ready, sitting in the driver's seat. He turned his head around and walked into the liquor store.


He turned and walked to the back. There were a few customers scattered about but not many. That was good. He was experienced in this kind of thing by now and knew that the fewer people around, the better.

The woman behind the counter looked out, too. It was a slow day. The young man made his way to the front. He looked at the clerk; she shouldn't be any problem. He finally reached the counter and pulled out the gun.

"Give me your money!"

Startled, she looked up.

"Give me your money!" he snarled.

"No comprendo! No comprendo!"

The young man looked around. This was not going according to plan. He briefly thought about what to do but decided it was too dangerous to stay around. He fled to the car, to the girl waiting outside. The clerk let out her breath and called the police. "A man tried to rob me!" she said in heavily accented English.

Gibran was 21 years old. He had a hard, chiseled look, the kind that comes more from a hard heart than any real character. He swore as his girlfriend drove away from the store.

He spent the rest of the morning fuming. Why had it gone wrong? He needed the money. He'd done this dozens of times. He could barely contain his fury.


The old man opened his store with a key and turned on the lights. Owning his own liquor store may not have been his dream as a child but it paid the bills. He'd already lived his dream, actually. In his younger years, he'd been a cop. As his family grew, however, he decided to find another job. He couldn't stand the thought of leaving his kids without a father. His kids were grown, now, his daughter lived in town, but he didn't regret his choice.

He'd been in the strip mall for some time. He was friendly with his neighbors; they often saw him in the parking lot, playing with his dog. He even let the kids buy pop from his store on hot days.

He went behind the counter and got ready for the day. As he puttered around in the back office, his eyes fell to the small safe in the corner. He'd already been robbed once this year and there had been a lot of reports of liquor stores being robbed over the last few months. Something about the reports worried him. In that safe was the only protection he had. He thought it over and decided. He walked to the safe, opened it, and took out the revolver.

He looked at the black gun in his hands. He'd left the force to avoid having to carry a gun, having to use it, or have one used on him. Resigned, he carried the gun and placed it on the front counter, then carefully put a newspaper on top of it.

Gibran was getting more riled up. He had to have the money. Finally, he decided to go out once more that day. This time, nothing would go wrong.

He cased the store more carefully, this time. The store was empty except for the old man. He glanced out the window at his girlfriend, waiting in the car. He walked up to the counter and pulled the gun.

"Give me your money!"

The old man looked at him, looked at the gun, and then looked at his register.

"It'll be a minute. The register's hooked up to the computer."

Gibran lost it. He wasn't going to be cheated this time. Not by a tired old man. He put both hands, one still holding the gun, on the counter and started to leap.

The old man may have been a liquor store owner in his early 70s but he still had the reflexes of a cop. He reached over, grabbed the pistol, and shot Gibran once in the chest. He fell onto the counter, dead.

Shaking slightly, the old man went to the phone and called 911. "I've just shot a robber."

A few days later, a tall, balding man with a baseball cap and an open face walked into the old man's liquor store. The owner was sitting behind the counter. Scattered about were several other men, most looked to also be in their 70s. The tall man walked up and stuck out his hand.

"Hi. I'm your daughter's pastor. I just wanted to see how you were doing." While they chatted, the preacher looked around. He thought about the old man's daughter, her husband, and their three sons. He thought about everything the man's son-in-law had taught him about guns and hunting. How, even though partially crippled by a stroke, the son-in-law still goes out for antelope and deer. He thought about how the old man's daughter was no stranger to guns and how the oldest grandson was an excellent marksman and wanted to be an Army sniper.

As the preacher and the owner said their goodbyes, the preacher looked around once more at the store. The old men had gathered closer to the counter as he entered. He smiled to himself. He was willing to bet there was plenty of firepower in that store today.


Epilogue: After a thorough investigation, Charles was found to be within his right to shoot his would-be robber and was not charged. Gibran has been linked to several liquor store robberies over the last year. His girlfriend is currently being charged. And my next-door-neighbor is relieved her dad is ok although she's worried about retaliation from Gibran's friends. This version is, of course, fictionalized; some stuff I made up, some I can't remember clearly from the reports in the paper.

[Divides the Waters]

Aug 5, 2008 17:18:30 GMT -5 Jeff Gerke said:

I wonder about that when I read news stories about police who shoot to kill instead of shooting to disable. I know they're trained that way, and it's probably best in terms of officer protection and even legal protection, but I wonder sometimes if a shot to the shoulder would resolve the situation just as well as a kill shot.

Jeff

That's strictly strategic. You aim for the largest part of the body in order to reduce chance of missing, and getting hurt or killed yourself in the process.

[torainfor]

A man may still be able to shoot with a hole in his chest. A man on crack may still be able to attack with a hole in his chest.

[Divides the Waters]

Aug 5, 2008 12:58:28 GMT -5 The Blue Collared Philosopher said:

i don't think you ever have to kill someone to preserve someone elses' life.

Unfortunately, many have died as a result of just that kind of thinking. No offense, I hope, but utopian ideals have not changed the fact of evil in this world.

And, Torainfor, you're right, which is why they try to put you down. A hole in the chest might not stop you, but a hole in the heart will, crack or no.

[J Jack]

Officers are trained that way because of their situation. A man with a gun can easily kill you even if you put a bullet in his shoulder. Training to take the kill shot is meant to only have one victim instead of elevating the risk of a gunman taking more lives, preferably not officer but especially not civilian.

This comes from a police officer in training

Sometimes the only solution to a very bad situation (like the ones the ETF...sorry, our version of SWAT are trained for) is to put the bad guy down. And sadly there is no other solution, as much as we would like there to be. To quote "Utopian ideals" are in existence but there is no utopia except the paradise we all are bound for as Christians. On earth too much evil exists to allow a Utopia.

I would like to get back to the main issue, after a slight digression. Most of us know there is eventually going to be a war between Heaven and Hell, correct? Maybe it's already started, we could be fighting evil right now. There are some who are pure evil, no remorse or morals that stop them from murdering, raping, looting, and eating kittens. So perhaps we as Christians are meant to take up the fight, to confront evil in all it's forms. Maybe our battle is meant to be prayer, but I use this statement from an author I cannot remember.

There are three types of people in this world.
1. The SHEEP, your businessmen in cushy offices who never have to see the evil of the world first hand.
2. The WOLVES who prey on the innocent SHEEP, be they murderers, con artists cheating old women out of money, or the kitten eaters.
3. Then there are the SHEEP DOGS, the WOLVES who watch over the SHEEP instead of preying on them. They instead prey on the WOLVES, driving them back and protecting the innocent and weak.

As Christians we should be confronting evil in all forms, through our prayers and by bringing The Word to all who want to hear. However there are Christians who are soldiers, police officers, etc. These men and women are the front line against evil, and I don't think God sees it as sin when a Christian warrior is forced to take the life of someone evil. It isn't a pleasant thought but if no one did it the world would be overrun with two bit dictators and war lords, criminals and the like. Isn't it our responsibility to care for His earth until the day comes when we are welcomed home? So is it wrong for us to eliminate some of the evil?

I have no idea if that was actually on topic, I kinda just went off where my thoughts led me.

[mongoose]

No value judgements or points being made in this post. No address to an individual or a group. Only some scriptures to consider, if you will.

Ephesians 6:11 Put on the whole armor of God, so that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12
For our struggle is not against enemies of blood and flesh, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the cosmic powers of this present darkness, against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, so that you may be able to withstand on that evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm. 14 Stand therefore, and fasten the belt of truth around your waist, and put on the breastplate of righteousness. 15 As shoes for your feet put on whatever will make you ready to proclaim the gospel of peace. 16 With all of these, F28 take the shield of faith, with which you will be able to quench all the flaming arrows of the evil one. 17 Take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 Pray in the Spirit at all times in every prayer and supplication. To that end keep alert and always persevere in supplication for all the saints.

2nd Corinthians 10:2 I ask that when I am present I need not show boldness by daring to oppose those who think we are acting according to human standards. 3 Indeed, we live as human beings, but we do not wage war according to human standards; 4 for the weapons of our warfare are not merely human, but they have divine power to destroy strongholds. We destroy arguments 5 and every proud obstacle raised up against the knowledge of God, and we take every thought captive to obey Christ.

Romans 12:1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may discern what is the will of God—what is good and acceptable and perfect.

1 Corinthians 1:22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks desire wisdom, 23 but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For God's foolishness is wiser than human wisdom, and God's weakness is stronger than human strength. 26 Consider your own call, brothers and sisters: not many of you were wise by human standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; 28 God chose what is low and despised in the world, things that are not, to reduce to nothing things that are, 29 so that no one might boast in the presence of God. 30 He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification and redemption, 31 in order that, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

1 Corinthians 5:12 For what have I to do with judging those outside? Is it not those who are inside that you are to judge? 13 God will judge those outside. "Drive out the wicked person from among you."

Romans 13:1 Let every person be subject to the governing authorities; for there is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists authority resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Do you wish to have no fear of the authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive its approval; 4 for it is God's servant for your good. But if you do what is wrong, you should be afraid, for the authority F80 does not bear the sword in vain! It is the servant of God to execute wrath on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore one must be subject, not only because of wrath but also because of conscience. 6 For the same reason you also pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, busy with this very thing.

Matthew 5:5 "Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth."
Matthew 5:7 "Blessed are the merciful, for they will receive mercy."
Matthew 5:9 "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. 10 "Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 "Blessed are you when people revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Matthew 5:19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

21 "You have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, "You shall not murder'; and "whoever murders shall be liable to judgment.' 22 But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother or sister, you will be liable to judgment; and if you insult a brother or sister, you will be liable to the council; and if you say, "You fool,' you will be liable to the hell of fire.
Matthew 5: 33 "Again, you have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, "You shall not swear falsely, but carry out the vows you have made to the Lord.' 34 But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 Let your word be "Yes, Yes' or "No, No'; anything more than this comes from the evil one. F43

38 "You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also; 40 and if anyone wants to sue you and take your coat, give your cloak as well; 41 and if anyone forces you to go one mile, go also the second mile. 42 Give to everyone who begs from you, and do not refuse anyone who wants to borrow from you.

43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Matthew 7:1 "Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. 2 For with the judgment you make you will be judged, and the measure you give will be the measure you get.

Matthew 10:16 "See, I am sending you out like sheep into the midst of wolves; so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. 17 Beware of them, for they will hand you over to councils and flog you in their synagogues; 18 and you will be dragged before governors and kings because of me, as a testimony to them and the Gentiles. 19 When they hand you over, do not worry about how you are to speak or what you are to say; for what you are to say will be given to you at that time; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death; 22 and you will be hated by all because of my name. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next; for truly I tell you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
26 "So have no fear of them; for nothing is covered up that will not be uncovered, and nothing secret that will not become known. 27 What I say to you in the dark, tell in the light; and what you hear whispered, proclaim from the housetops. 28 Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from your Father. 30 And even the hairs of your head are all counted. 31 So do not be afraid; you are of more value than many sparrows.
38 and whoever does not take up the cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Those who find their life will lose it, and those who lose their life for my sake will find it.

Luke 6:27 "But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. 30 Give to everyone who begs from you; and if anyone takes away your goods, do not ask for them again.
32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. F55 Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked. 36 Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.

37 "Do not judge, and you will not be judged; do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven; 38 give, and it will be given to you. A good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap; for the measure you give will be the measure you get back."

[strangewind]

I recently completed reading the entire bible. Can someone point out where all forms of killing a man are considered a sin? Because I'm not sure where that comes from.

Jesus caused a public disturbance, committed assault with a weapon and destruction of property in the temple. Did he sin then?

God commanded capital punishment. Did Moses sin, then, when he applied it?

Christ is to come with an army. Do they intend to host a quilting bee?

For what it is worth in this theoretical proposal: I kill the pedophile, in mercy, and thank God for the honor of participating in His justice. I fail to see how this contradicts, in any way, the teaching of our Lord and Master, the law or the grace of the Holy Spirit.