Question/Suggestions

[J Jack]

I'm in the process of writing one of my ideas out in full, and it's fairly promising. I've come across a hiccup unfortunately. The story follows soldiers several years in the future in the fight for humanity, it's actually in here somewhere. The problem is body armor and weapons. At the moment I have them using the XM8 rifle with the sniper, assualt, and submachine variants. As well as the...

Browning M2

M8 Barrett Rifle (unsure of which model to use however)

M72 LAW (however again unsure if a good choice as it is one shot and that makes no sense in this situation as reloading would be key) I am debating the use of the B-300 instead, the only issue is back blast would be a problem for the soldiers in the story. I also debated the AT4 but again one shot is a problem, the LRAC F1 would not be a bad choice but again I'm looking for input.

The whole story is a ground based fight for survival with the humans having air, armor, and infantry. The enemy (unnamed, some unknown alien force who arrived in great force...a name would helpful if anyone has any suggestions ) The enemy have superior anti everything weapons but no air and very little armor.

The major problem I'm having is body armor. I was thinking ceramic plates designed in the future warrior style. A full body suit with helmet and inter personnel comm system. I would prefer it to be larger than usual but maintaining the mobility of smaller suits, and near future muscle and neural enhancers. The only problem I'm having is what material would be preferable to use in a body armor. Ceramic works well and the dragon scale armor also appears to be a good possibility. Any suggestions on weapons and armor? And vehicles and artillery and so on and so forth. This is supposed to be mishmashed so don't limit thinking to US or such thinking. Suggestions por favor. Thankee kindly.

[torainfor]

Ceramic would be very heavy and very brittle. I would go with armor made of some kind of fiber/resin scales. The resin could be just the slightest bit pliable to absorb energy from projectiles. It also wouldn't conduct electricity, for whatever that's worth. The scales would precipitate movement and even ventilation. The fibers would be for strength and...? Solar conductivity to power electronic equipment?

I've worked in a pet material--metallic glass--into my latest story. It's just a metallic alloy cooled so quickly it can't develop a crystal structure (or grain boundaries, which lead to cracks). Right now, it's mostly used in transformers. Since the story's set 100 years in the future, I can pretend "they've" developed it into something I need, like transparency. ("Transparent aluminum?!") But you could conceivably use metallic glass filaments as your "fiber." I don't know how that would work with the whole solar conductivity thing, though, since they don't conduct electricity.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorphous_metal

Wouldn't my materials science prof be proud?

[mongoose]

A few suggestions based only on my research.

Someone who seemed to know what they were talking about said that ceramic plates in the kevlar vest or wherever are good for stopping a bullet once. They distribute the impact and stop it from passing through to the target's flesh, but they also break upon impact and have to be replaced. "Oh!" said I, surprised.

I wasn't clear on the technical explanation, but I guess Bat Man's suit is supposed to be fairly good in the way of full body armor? I remember a line about titanium, which is also used in high end bicycles because of its high strength and light weight.

In Jeff's 3rd Firebrand book they use some kind of steel armor for various advantages it had over kevlar. I wasn't clear on all that, and someone I was talking to had his doubts about it's potential effectiveness, but Jeff says he must have gotten the idea from his ex-military technical advisers, or they at least cleared it. Isn't vehicle armor made of some kind of metal? So maybe a thiner, lighter, near future version of that.

Weapons: Heckler and Koch looks pretty good in the books and on the web sites I read. I'm sure anyone here has heard of the MP5, but they also make weapons of other sizes. In Tom Clancy's "Rainbow Six" they use what they call an MP10, basically an MP5 chambered for 10mm rounds which have greater stopping power due to their size, than the standard 9mm.
Speaking of 10mm, I read that the FBI tested glock 10mm hand guns at one point, and may have selected them to issue to some of their people. A 30 round mag selective fire pistol was also made in 10mm, but my impression from what I read was that it never caught on. If you're going selective fire, go with a sub-machine gun, I suppose. But with the extended magazine and Glock's blowback system you could control the kick fairly well even on 3 round burst with the pistol. My PCs sometimes use it, at any rate.

As you say it wouldn't have to be a U.S. weapon, the Stargate SG1 Character, Colonel Jack O'Neil, makes a pretty good argument for the P90 for use against their armored and symbiote enhanced alien foes. Something about being heavier, more powerful, faster rate of fire or something than the M16.

I read a discussion some time ago on the specialoperations.com message board of the relative merits of various assault rifles. More than one poster favored a French assault rifle, the FAMAS with the standard 5.56x45mm cartridge.

I've wondered about these different cartridges. Of course you can kill a person with a .22 placed correctly. But body armor is getting better and better, and much as I hate the idea of killing at all, I figure if you're going to do it, you might as well do it quickly, right? So I would think soldiers would prefer larger, more powerful rounds with greater stopping power (or penetration, if they metal jacket the rounds) over the smaller, lighter, more to a magazine rounds that won't stop a person on drugs or adrenaline if they it the wrong part of the target's body. Thus the preference for the 10mm pistol round, or if not that, the .40 S & W, or even the .45.

Same idea when it comes to rifles. Especially if you're going up against something with armor, I'd think you'd want to be able to cut it down with as few rounds as possible. Something two staged with the first piece penetrating and exploding might be in order. Or even just a 7.62 round rather than the 5.56 used by most assault rifles (including the M16.) The now old M14 is a single shot rifle chambered for 7.62, and some spec. ops. troops use them when not on a sniping mission, per-se, but when they need greater range and accuracy than they can get with their M16 variants.

Again, all this comes only from my reading, and if you or someone you know has experience with any of these weapons or armors, you would hopefully go with whatever you or they know from that experience. Speaking of which, my PCs are based only ten or twenty years into the future, and are special operations capable and special forces soldiers who might choose to use some of these same systems. Thus, I also ask that you let me know if I'm way off base when it comes to what they might use.

[J Jack]

Thanks torainfor, that was helpful, I also learned a lot.

I was thinking ceramic along the lines of the silicon carbide ceramic matrices and laminates of the Dragon Skin armor

-- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Skin_body_armor --

It's not as brittle as the older plates and much more flexible, it was too expensive for the US army so they dumped the program, much like the XM8 program. So would something like a polycarbonate fiber base with silicon carbide filaments be believable as body armor? The polycarbonate is already used as light armor, such as riot shields, and the silicon carbide is extremely strong and used in the dragon skin. Would that be a believable armor system? I don't want to get into a situation where the reader has trouble 1. understanding what I'm talking about and 2. believing what they do understand. It's supposed to be a future warrior armor system, so it should be easy to pull of anything really, but I want to make it as believable as possible.

[J Jack]

I have no idea what is on base mongoose, I wish I did lol. There are so many options and that's the problem. Heckler and Koch has always been a safe bet in my opinion, they were always ahead of their time when it came to weapons and engineering. That said, there are many other excellent weapons like the P90 and the FAMAS both of which I'm not fans of simply because they don't look cool . It's not the best way to judge but they've never looked like something intimidating, which is really half the battle. That bit about larger more powerful rounds is interesting, I didn't think about that actually. At the time the story is set armor would be very advanced and stopping power would be the most important factor. So maybe looking at a gun with larger caliber or armor piercing rounds would be a better idea. The armor seems to be the biggest issue right now, something completely made up would probably be best.

[torainfor]

Ohhh! I thought you meant real dragon scales!

I wonder if buckyballs or buckytubes could be integrated as the "fiber." They're just tiny tubes and balls made of carbon or boron. I would think a woven mesh of the tubes would absorb impact well. I see "they" are thinking of using them in body armor.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucky_balls

Ooh! Here you go: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckypaper

[J Jack]

I hadn't even thought of bucky materials. Thanks, I think that solved the composition of the armor problem.

[mongoose]

In my opinion, if you really go into detail about the composition or other statistics of the things used in the story you're taking a break from the story, to use Jeff's phrase, and will lose some readers, myself included. Yeah, I want to know what weapons and armor they're using so I can decide whether or not to copy them for my own writing. But when you start comparing muzzle velocities and degree of variation in firing patterns and the amount of space between the shots placed on target, you've gone a little too far for me. I just want to know that it's bigger, or more powerful, or more accurate, or faster, or lighter, or something, and that it kills the target or protects the target (if it's armor).

[torainfor]

I agree, but only to an extent and only depending on the author. Tons of cool new inventions were developed because some scifi writer was speculative and specific. Gives the scientists and engineers something to shoot for.

[J Jack]

There is a line that can't be crossed, but as a writer I prefer to be informed about everything even if it won't make an appearance. You never know when you might need it.

Second question, when someone is thinking and you are writing it how does it get written out?

For example, make this correct

Man, that was cool, John thought.

Thanks.

[torainfor]

When I write, it's so completely in character, seen through their eyes, that most of the time I don't even put the "he thought." Although it depends on how far the mention of the subject was from the thought in the narrative.

~~

John followed the other recruits into the underground lab. Around him, so many things were happening that you momentarily forgot who the story was about. A lab tech stood in front of a concrete wall.

"You'll notice," said Q, "the vest is made of woven fur from the belly of rare Madagascar squirrels." Q pulled out a gun, something terribly specific, and shot, point-blank, into the vest.

A blue wave, beginning at the point of impact, spread in growing concentric circles, filling the room. The bullet fell to the assistant's feet, now molded into the shape of a small acorn.

Wow, John thought. That was cool.

~~Or~~

John slowly backed around the corner, but stopped at the feel of cold steel on his neck.

"Turn around."

He did so, keeping his hands up. The terribly specific gun looked terribly dangerous. John winced as the mercenary aimed right for his chest--right at his vest.

Here goes. Let's see if this thing works.

The shot echoed in the hallway. Concentric waves of blue light filled the room as the squirrel fur vest absorbed the impact, turning the slug into a small, metal acorn.

Wow. That was cool.

[J Jack]

Awesome, that's the way I've been doing it. That saves me a lot of time changing it all around, thanks.

[J Jack]

So far I think that it's very promising, I would appreciate some input on this however. I decided against aliens, because well it just degrades the story really.

What if...
a movement known as the underground has genetically altered human soldiers, creating brutish thugs that were meant to be super soldiers. They however take over and begin systematically annihilating all who are lesser than they. Only the movement maintains a modicum of control over these soldiers and has united most of the world and ignited a furious world war against those who want to survive.

Just what I've got in the way of a plot outline so I would really appreciate any input. Thanks.

[Divides the Waters]

I'm not sure where Scintor went, but you might want to PM him. This topic sounds right up his alley.

[mongoose]

Bob Meyer did something like that, only on a much smaller scale, with government engineering of crosses between humans and baboons, meant to be used as soldiers. They started to learn how to use the weapons, however, broke out, and started causing trouble. Still, it was on the scale where the main character, an ex special forces team leader and his team were able to contain them using some interesting tactics and innovative solutions. Bob Meyer, BTW, is one of those few that they call, "Been There Done Thats." He was, himself, an operator and team leader, and later on an instructor in the Army Special Forces, and he's a very good writer as well (unlike Rick Marcinko, founder of SEAL team six, with his "Rogue Warrior" series.) I think Meyer also has a sci fi series.