Magic in fantasy--good or bad.

[gabriel]

So I'm starting this thread with a bit of hesitation, mainly because I'm new and feel a bit awkward starting a discussion, and also because I hope this doesn't hurt religious sentiments.
In a Christian Fantasy Novel, should magic, sorcery, necromancy, etc., and subsequently their practitioners, be depicted in a good, bad, or neutral light? I've mine own opinions, to which I'll own up once I see what people think, but I'm just curious about what everyone else thinks without an official doctrine or something being drawn up or consulted.

So! What do you think?

[Vaporwolf]

I'm of the inclination that Magic in and of itself is a neutral entity and it is how it is applied that is good or bad... much like electricity.

Of course that could also depend on the source of magic. If, in your world, magic is a naturally occouring energy source that can be tapped into by some people then my answer stands. If, like in some worlds, it is drawn from other entities or evil sources, then it is bad.

Also some schools of magic would lend themselves to being totally evil, such as necromancy.

Though just having said that makes me wonder what a story about a good necromancer would look like.

[mongoose]

I have one (a story about a "good" necromancer). A co-worker lent it to me. I couldn't stomach it. No, I believe magic is magic and magic is bad, and thus, the characters who practice magic, whatever their intentions, are serving the evil one contrary to the wishes of God. I thought the Bible's teachings on this were amply clear. It became apparent, however, from other discussions on this topic with readers and writers of Speculative Christian Fiction, that the issue wasn't so cut and dried.

Even my own opinion wavers a bit when you consider that Tolkien and Lewis both had their heroes using "magic" and Stephen Lawhead and Karen Hancock came very close, without stating that their characters were using "magic." All of these were excellent Christian authors, with excellent stories that they told. What it comes down to, I believe, is how you define "magic."

I probably would consider having my characters use what some might call magic, while making it clear that they were not using magic at all. Magic, by the definition I use, is an attempt by a person to manipulate something, for their own purposes, using something other than their natural abilities. Miracles, on the other hand, which I would have occur in my stories, are God making manipulating something for his purposes, on behalf of a character, that the character could not manipulate using their natural abilities.

Certainly people might get confused who don't know, don't see, or disagree with those distinctions. The celtic druid uses elemental magic, which is really calling on demonic spirits to influence the weather. The Christian missionary prays for God to influence the weather, and God does so. One is evil, the other is righteous, but do they look any different to the neutral observer?

Of course, God rarely pits his power against that of the evil one in a head to head match. The evil one would be squished in literally no time flat. The only way head to head power struggles could happen in our stories if we're being true to Scripture and church tradition is if the Christian took the situation in his/her own hands, and chose to put God's power to the test. Would God come through in that instance?

Let's consider a few examples. Elijah vs. the prophets of Baal on Mt. Carmel. Nothing and no one came through for the false prophets as they tried to do things in their own power. Moses and the magicians in pharoh's court. The magicians called upon demonic spirits to counterfeit what God had already used Moses to do, but God proved the greater in each instance. Demons trembled and fled when the disciples rebuked them in the name of Jesus the Christ. Prior to being rebuked, one demond posessed person prophesied by the demon with her that Paul and his associate were men of God. A missionary, when encountering shamen levitating, just started praising God, and the shamen fell. St. Patrick, when faced with druid priests who called up a storm in the early fall, asked them if they wanted it to stop. After convincing them they'd lose their crops if the storm continued, he asked God to stop the storm, and God did so. The singer Carmen has this song, "A Witches Invitation" wherein the witch challenges him to point out where God's miracles were greater than his magic. Carmen just pointed out the destination of the witch's soul, and the witch freaked out and asked him to leave.

So, if it came to a boxing match or some kind of magician's duel, it would be no contest. But God doesn't debase himself to compete with the enemy. He just calls to His chosen ones, and when they submit themselves to Him and resist the devil, the devil has to flee. We have authority over the spirits that enable the workers of magic.

so in our stories. If our characters are submitted to God and resisting the devil, they should be kicking him out seven ways. If they fall to his seductions, to fear or deception or pride or whatever, however, he could begin to get the better of them. It's then that we ought to have God sending someone, or something to remind our primary characters of who they are in Him, and of their place and authority.

I don't believe there are showdowns between good and evil, not in the traditional sense we see in so many stories. I appreciate how Ted Dekker has his characters trying to use whatever power they have to defeat the enemy, but in the end having to trust in God, and let the light of the Holy Spirit defeat the darkness that came against them. Karen Hancock also used that principle when her PC had to drop his sword and his dagger and let the baddie tear into him before the power of God shot through him and into the baddie, destroying it. The PC was forever scarred, but he came closer to learning his lesson: God's more powerful than anything else ever will be, and He uses that power when and where He chooses, for His purposes, not for ours. And that's not magic.

[morganlbusse]

Magic (good, bad, or neutral) comes down to how you build it in your story. Do you have it coming from a source (God, demons, elements) or is it just a part of your world, like air?

And then how do your characters access that magic and what can they do with that magic?

I don't have magic in my fantasy (nor wizards, elves, orcs, fairies, probably the only fantasy that doesn't have any of the usual fantasy elements ;P). My characters have a gift, something they are born with. And like any gift we possess, whether its intelligence, strength, or leadership qualities, its how you use it.

[metalikhan]

Another thing to consider is whether the "magic" in your story is actually an alternate science and whether you want to approach it as such. There were once people who thought the needles on compasses were demonically possessed; now we know about magnetic fields and polarities. Sting (the LOTR blade Frodo carried) might have been forged of a metal with a kind of phosphorescent property that made it glow only in the presence of a specific type of molecule exuded from the breath or skin of the orcs. This information would not have added anything to the central story; but if the story repeatedly showed various "magics" having some scientific foundation or explanation, the story itself might have been a very different one.

As for magic in the story, much would depend on whether the fantasy world has Christianity as we know it. If it does, the biblical strictures against sorcery, making contact with the dead, etc., apply. If it doesn't, then we go back to the source/application question and, ultimately, to the magical principles in that particular world, its rules of engagement. Rules presuppose consequences. What are the penalties for breaking them?

[Jeff Gerke]

Then you have the midiclorians of the Force in Star Wars.

I know this is a discussion that became an argument on a forum similar to this, so let's be sure we don't go there. Let's agree that there can be a range of opinions on this matter among Christians of equally good standing before God.

I think you can make a good case either way. Much of it depends on your intentions as the author. Does the author mean magic to be an other-than-God source of supernatural power? Or is it, as Vaporwolf mentioned, simply a misunderstood natural or from-God phenomenon?

As a Christian, I want to be careful about what powers we allow our stories to contain if those powers are supposedly opposed to God. We wouldn't want to imply that God might be outmatched if enough of this power were brought to bear against Him.

On the other hand, if we consider magic to be supernatural power belonging to realms beyond human, then certainly both Satan and God bring "magic" into play in the world. I mean, what do supernatural healings look like but magic? What do demonic possessions look like but magic?

If everyone in the story misunderstands supernatural power as magic, and people on both sides line up to try to understand and even channel this power, isn't that pretty much the way things are in reality?

As a seminary graduate I have seen trigger words divide whole denominations. Inerrant being one of them. Submission being another (as it pertains to wives). Let's not let magic do that with us.

Finally, as a fan of Christian speculative fiction I'm prepared to be pretty tolerant with how Christian novelists treat magic in their fiction. What if an imagined world ran entirely on magic? I mean, something like that shouldn't be verboten to even imagine, or are we getting into thought police territory? In a magical world like that (think Whoville, maybe), everyone would be a magician to some degree. Would everyone in the society be necessarily evil therefore?

Just as Paul was thought to be a god and Simon Magus came to Peter to try to buy God's power, it's possible to wield mysterious power--power that looks a lot like magic--and not be a servant of evil.

Jeff

[scintor]

Another angle for magic is the idea of gifts that run in certain families versus calling upon powers. I've studied the parapsychological literature, and they have concluded that some have gifts that science cannot explain and that those gifts tend to run in families.

Now, these gifts tend to be rather weak and inconsistant in real life and they are often used by Wiccans and other cults to lure people with such gifts into their ranks.

In a fictional world you could have people with gifts battling those who use demons for their power source. (that gives me an idea for a story.)

Scincerely,

[e-mail]

[morganlbusse]

Hey Jeff, which seminary did you attend? (Just curious)

[torainfor]

I was once told that I can hear God and get glimpses of insight* most others don't because I'm Irish.

*Although, most of the time, I'm a dumb as a post when it comes to reading people.

[mongoose]

I'm just curious as to how anyone else would know when or whether you heard from God? I don't doubt that you do, I just don't think I, as a third party, would have a clue that you were hearing from God in any given moment. Now, if you told me what God said, I could test the spirits and whatnot, but that's another discussion. I know. I just finished a research project on the topic of testing the spirits and determining whether or not prophetic words are from God.

When it comes to reading people (and stories are written from this perspective, I'm sure) I believe it's mostly a subconscious picking up on subliminal signals given off in people's body language, facial expression, posture, movement, tone of voice, and even pheromones they may release when expressing themselves. The listener may not know how they know that the person is upset, or lying, or whatever, but they know.

I don't believe it's psychic in any way. I'm much more inclined to believe that they perceptive people even pick up on the dilation of the pupils, the tightness of the lips or forehead, even the other person's heart and breath rate, blood pressure, skin temperature, etc. Some people are better than lie detection machines when it comes to reading people, but they use the exact same feedback that the machines use, and just process the information through their intuitive filters.

I just came from a workshop on neuro linguistic programing. It's gained popularity, and become a pseudo-science. There's nothing weird or metaphysical about it. You simply listen to and watch how people express themselves, whether in terms of verbal communication, visual gathering and expressing of information, or kinesthetic. Then, to communicate more effectively with them, you adapt your own communication style to match theirs for a brief time, and the two of you connect. From then on you don't usually have to worry about it. That's just one more example of the techniques used by alleged "psychics," psychologists, and other great communicators. They see what's working, what the people are responding positively to, and they continue on that track under the assumption that what they've said or done so far was correct or effective.

And then, of course, you have those that God has given the gift of words of knowledge or wisdom. Some can look into another person's soul, and know things about them, by the Spirit of God, that they'd have no other way of knowing. This gift can be used to minister truth to a person, but it can also become a burdensome entanglement. One prophet who comes through our church fairly often, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, asked for those who are tired of looking into people when they meet them, and who just wanted to get to know people the normal way. He prayed for them that they would be released from that burden.

Sometimes Christians can attempt to use these Spiritual Gifts for their own gain, or just because they think they're supposed to use them. They run the risk of practicing a form of witchcraft when they do that, attempting to use the Spiritual Gifts when not bidden to do so by the Holy Spirit. The gifts are, after all, without repentance. God gives the gift and does not take it away, especially gifts like intuition, or communication or whatever. It's just the annointing to use those gifts powerfully for specific times, places, situations and people that God will give and take depending on various factors.

It's all very fascinating to study, and I believe to study it can lead us to a closer and more effective relationship with God and with people. I hope we can all not only speculate but how things could be in other realities or universes for our stories, but also learn more of the Truth of how things are in this reality, for our own real lives.

[torainfor]

"I'm just curious as to how anyone else would know when or whether you heard from God?"

I think my pastor's philosophy is pretty much that if you heard God tell you to do something, you might have actually heard Him. If you heard God tell you to tell him (my pastor) to do something, fugidaboutit!

"When it comes to reading people..."

I think you're exactly right. I think it's the same for predicting something that's going to happen. You're just analyzing stuff you've read or heard and coming up with a likely result.

On the other hand...my sister and I can walk into certain places and immediately feel what we refer to as "bad mojo." My husband's learned to do it, too. That, I believe, is the Spirit in us reacting to the spirit of a particular place.

"You simply listen to and watch how people express themselves, whether in terms of verbal communication, visual gathering and expressing of information, or kinesthetic. Then, to communicate more effectively with them, you adapt your own communication style to match theirs for a brief time, and the two of you connect. "

I actually read about that in one of Scott Adams' Dilbert/business philosophy books. It's kinda creepy. You duplicate the speech patterns and gestures of another person, and they subconsciously read it as you support and agree with them. Then they'll be more likely to back up what you suggest.

[gabriel]

The great thing about sword & sorcery fiction is that magic is bad and swords are good, and it doesn't get much deeper beyond that. I remember how impressionable I was to entertainment when I was in high school. A friend and I went and saw "The Craft" and immediately we wanted to study witchcraft. Yes, it was a bad terrible movie, but I didn't know the Lord at that point and was open to invesitgating it.
This leads me to having a reponsibility of depicting magic the way it is in th world: something spiritual, demonic, and probably abominable. Now when I read Tolkien or any other fantasy writer, I don't break into tongues whenever someone casts a spell or something. I understand it's fiction and what's going on is not even real. So I don't flip out. But for myself, I won't ever have my heros do magic without the real life consequences happening to them.
However. God does do unbelievable miracles, and I'd LOVE to depict those in my books. I've heard of him giving unusual gifts, too, you wouldn't think He'd do. I've heard of one guy who used to be a drug-runner, and when he repented, the Lord gave him the ability to smell drugs so he could chase then traffikers down and call the cops. That's awesome, and alot of good was/is probably being done. So, as I've read in various posts above, I think God can radically gift characters.
Frodo's sword got me to thinking of how that could be pulled off. And then a *ding* popped in my head! God can totally bless things: "Frodo, taketh thine sword and holdeth it up and I shall blesseth it with strangeth powers." Or something.
But the issue is to differentiate the power of God from the power of the enemy. Which then brings in the issue of how much faith a character has, and how this affects his giftings.
Anyways, these aren't rules I make for myself, or doctrines/dogmas/catpas; just guidelines I've thought/prayed about over the course of year. In hardboiled fiction, there's always the temptation to make someting evil so it can be "hard-boiled." With whatever I come up with, I think prayer is necessary so it can worked out with God. I've avoided so many stupid/evil plots beause of prayer.

<<Hearing from God>>
I don't think there is a way to say, "This is how you know..." It's still something internal, in my spirit, and even then I know I'm still being trained, as we all are. You know you haven't heard from God when it's not scriptual

[scintor]

As for Hearing God:

If even an angel brings you another doctrine, let him be cursed. (para.)

Flashes of insight are usually random and unpredictable according to those I have talked to. Completely unlike false prophets who always claim to know everything.

Scincerely,

[e-mail]

PS: Two psychics meet. One says "You're fine, How am I?"

[Jeff Gerke]

Morwena, I attended Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas.

Torainfor, I've read about that copying of other people's speech patterns and posture and gestures in a book on body language in business. Fascinating. We all do it, usually without knowing it, when we're around someone we subconsciously want to influence or cause to like us. When I find myself mirroring someone's gestures I try to consciously make a change.

But on some level our mind knows that by mimicking someone we can sometimes dispose them to like us better. At the least, it's good to know when it's happening so we can be aware of ourselves.

Jeff

[dizzyjam]

Of course then you have to decide if mimicking to get the other's approval is a God thing or not. Since that's how we are wired, I'd say that to a great degree it is a God thing. Consider: We are to mimic God and He likes it when we do. That is the primary reason we are wired this way. Use with fellow humans is secondary. Can this be abused? Certainly. When someone uses this gift for selfish gain they are already in evil and whether they are using that ability or not is really not the issue. There are other people that seek to help people out but realize that some people have to realize what's being offered really is help. When they use the ability, they get the other person liking them and then that other person trusts them enough so that when the help is offered it is accepted. Sometimes it's best to just go with the way God already wired us to begin with, but at all times watch that we don't go to extremes. Extreme use could lead toward a superiority complex while little to no use could lead to little to nothing happening. Remember the parable of the talents? Let's take the word literally. If you have this ability, it is a talent God has given you. Use it. Don't abuse it. And whatever you do, don't bury your treasure. When it's asked for in return, what will you say?

As far as the prophetic is concerned, if people are using this ability to try to predict things for people then they are starting from the wrong view on things to begin with. There are certainly people out there that do this and most of them go by the title "psychic" instead of "prophet", although there are quite a few "prophets" out there as well doing this. I've encountered fakes and the real thing. The real thing usually isn't as spectacular as the fakes, but don't count out the people that are spectacular just because of that.

In the realm of fantasy fiction, I'd say that there are definitely ways to utilize this. The evil wizard could really be a crooked money man that uses his gift the wrong way to take money from the people in the various towns he goes to with very little in return. And the good person could be someone that uses his gift to help those around him and draw them together better as a community to fight against the evil money man. The supernatural and magical elements could just be window dressing at that point.

Hope this helps with the discussion.

Be encouraged,

David