Nova
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Posts: 37
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Post by Nova on May 8, 2009 17:57:25 GMT -5
What makes a good villain in everyones opinion. This is obviously i important part of any story, but what makes the best villain in a fantasy story.
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Post by Spokane Flyboy on May 8, 2009 20:56:23 GMT -5
Ones that seem real. They have weakness and strengths. They actually pose a threat. The over-dramatic plots foiled by his own bumbling henchmen works for cartoons and kid stories, but not elsewhere. I tend to find villains more interesting when they don't actually acknowledge that they're know they're bad or evil, but actually think they're good. If there is any dialogue in the story with the villain, him trying to justify why he is doing good and not evil can be interesting.
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Post by bellhavenbard on May 8, 2009 21:07:42 GMT -5
Hi Nova, This is a thought provoking question. The best villains are the ones you remember long after the story is over. The example that comes to mind is Sindrome from the movie The Incredibles. A kids movie--I know, but I think it has an outstanding plot line and set of characters. Anyway, what makes Sindrome seem real and believable is the back-story that explains how he beecame a villain. Originally, he was a boy named Buddy who admired Mr. Incredible (the good guy) and aspired to be his crime-fighting partner. But Mr. Incredible refused to aknowledge Buddy's skills and the help he offered. This rejection so embittered Buddy that he set out to become a hero greater than Mr Incredidible, a hero who served only himself. This set the stage for him to show up years later as the evil villain Sindrome. Show your readers how the villain became who he is. There's my two bits on the subject. And now for some opinions from the rest of you...
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Nova
New Member
Posts: 37
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Post by Nova on May 8, 2009 22:01:09 GMT -5
You both make great points. I to think the best villains are those that don't think they are the villain but are doing the right thing. In the book I'm writing it different because i have two villains, who I'm trying to get some considerable depth added too. For instance one character comes to role over a entire continent and kill and enslave other cultures. he does this because he has seen the destructive nature of cultures other then his own, and believes his own needs to be enforced and those who refuse to except it are worthy of death. These feelings have been fostered by a very sinister darker character who resides as a friend and confident to the first. This second character wants his own power and seeks and uses untamed sources to see it happened.
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Post by Spokane Flyboy on May 8, 2009 22:22:23 GMT -5
The first villain has many places to pull from. The Roman empire operated much on this idea, then the most infamous person to do such a thing was Hitler. The relationship between the first and the second is similar to that between Senator Palpatine and Anakin Skywalker before Anakin pledged his life to Palpatine.
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Post by metalikhan on May 9, 2009 4:17:45 GMT -5
The villains, both great and small, that I've found most believable are bullies whose self absorption doesn't allow room for compassion or mercy or self sacrifice. They are certain their views, their desires, their methods are right; and if they wound someone in the course of proving their rightness or attaining their goals, they feel they are justified. In many ways, their consciences are seared; and their egocentricity manifests as a peculiar kind of self-idolatry. If they think of God at all, they are certain His will conforms to theirs rather than working to align their will to His.
I think the frightful part of any villain is that we all carry the same seed of villainy in us because of the rebelliousness that separated us from God. Without Christ, we mostly control our villainous tendencies to the extent that it keeps us in the good graces of people whose favor we wish to gain or that it keeps us out of jail — and for many, even jail is not a deterrent.
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Post by kouter on May 9, 2009 5:57:15 GMT -5
Here are a couple basics rules of thumb for making a really unforgettable villain.
She must be both sympathetic yet unforgivable. The dynamic tension between the hero and villain work best if whatever the villain is trying to achieve "makes sense" to the Hero but its rather the method she is employing that is reprehensible. Charisma is also a necessity. In a different time and place, the Hero and Villain would be best friends.
There is also the thug villain who is merely unforgivable. Easy to do but these are only good for cannon fodder and lack depth.
A true villain, you should actually like to a degree, maybe even to a great degree.
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Post by Spokane Flyboy on May 9, 2009 15:30:06 GMT -5
Now you're making me wax nostalgic for my role-play character, Terry Fitzgerald. As far as I'm concerned, he's a radiated corpse now.
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Post by Divides the Waters on May 10, 2009 10:07:54 GMT -5
I don't know if I think there is a "perfect villain," though there is definitely an archetypical villain. I have several in my novels; some are more like characters from Paradise Lost, while others are a blend of Vlad Tsepesh and the Marquis DeSade. I think the villains can work on a multitude of levels, and you have to decide not what's most expected (after all, no matter what you do, it's been done before), but what's most effective for your story. Metalikhan brings up a point that I had also used; it's the old "there but for the grace of God go I" theme. One of my readers was disturbed by the notion that the hero saw a physical resemblance between himself and the villain, but another caught on to the fact that I was trying to say we're all closer to Hitler than to Christ.
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Post by metalikhan on May 10, 2009 14:33:10 GMT -5
On the "there but for the grace of God go I" theme, would you say we partly select and develop our villains, consciously or subconsciously, according to some of the darkness in our own hearts that God rescued us from? Or, conversely, are our villains over-the-top versions of minor ones we have dealt with personally (say, a coworker, family member, or neighbor) or have read about (historical figures or present day thugs that make the headlines)? When you write about your villain, what are you drawing the character from? I know there is always the disclaimer that all characters are fictional and any resemblance to a real person is coincidental. That's not a problem — as writers we can mask and patchwork characters completely enough to hide the person(s) that might have inspired the character. On the other hand, there is the adage about writing what you know. What personal knowledge or experience do you have in mind when you put your villain through his or her paces in the story or write in your villain's POV? Does your villain simply grow as a foil or counter to your hero? (My hero has this, this, and this quality so my villain must have the opposite qualities, but both share this and this quality. Something like that.) The same questions could apply to the heroes we write about, but this thread is about villains.
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Post by torainfor on May 10, 2009 15:48:32 GMT -5
Conversation with my ma, not ten minutes ago: Her: So, you were asking about character development in your novel? I hate your [villain]! He's just a terrible person! Me: Yeah, he's just based on me at my worst, "Alls I want is to be left alone!" Her: Well, you did a good job with him! He's evil! I'm not really sure how I should take that...
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Post by Spokane Flyboy on May 10, 2009 20:11:41 GMT -5
I'm not really sure how I should take that... Well, how does the Scripture go? "There is no one righteous, not even one — except John, that guys a saint"? ;D Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Post by torainfor on May 11, 2009 1:02:47 GMT -5
You gotta be...somethin'...to live in Spokaloo. I did five hard years there one lifetime.
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Post by Spokane Flyboy on May 11, 2009 1:24:46 GMT -5
You gotta be...somethin'...to live in Spokaloo. I did five hard years there one lifetime. I've developed a sense of humor that helps me cope. Fortunately, I found a church lead by a pastor with a similar sense of humor.
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Post by knightofhyn on May 11, 2009 17:51:41 GMT -5
Personally I think teh best villians are the ones that are just off of reality. Take your "garden variety" sociopath. He's not the axe murderer hacking and slashing through the crowd. He just doesn't care. He's not worried if he burns the town down or runs over his neighbor's dog.
He's just living his life.
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