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Post by Divides the Waters on May 13, 2009 19:27:05 GMT -5
Which brings up yet another interesting "take." Metalikhan, you bring up some fascinating (and somewhat disturbing) possibilities. I don't know, however, that you need to find "opposites" in order to create a villain. As a matter of fact, if you really want complexity, you could focus on similarities. Perhaps this is a bad example, but you remember Rene Belloq in Raiders of the Lost Ark claiming that he and Indiana Jones were very much alike, and that all that it would take would be a nudge to make Indy just as bad as Belloq. He shows this most effectively in the scene where he calls Indy's bluff on the cliff--he knows that Jones will never actually blow up the Ark of the Covenant.
Perhaps a more frightening example is the story of "The Wave." What does it take to turn normal, everyday people into Nazis? Answer: Not as much as we'd like to think.
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Post by metalikhan on May 14, 2009 2:29:49 GMT -5
Oh, I definitely agree about showing the similarities. That is what foils are: similar characters in a story. But in the case of the hero/villain relationship, there will always be some quality that makes them run counter to each other, something that makes one of them more susceptible to the "nudge" so that s/he embraces the bad.
Your example of Belloq was a good one, Divides. It's been a long time since I watched "Raiders of the Lost Ark" but from what I remember Belloq and Jones did indeed share many similar qualities that made them evenly matched. However, Belloq chose methods (and associates) Jones found repulsive and possessed a degree of selfish interest that took him far beyond the mere search for and acquisition of a very important historical artifact.
One scene I remember — and it may be the same one you referred to — was when Belloq told Jones that the Ark was a transmitter to God. In that one exchange, I had a brief sympathy for Belloq because it seemed he revealed a desire to meet God although he did not comprehend that the depth of his sin, his unrighteousness, would prevent it, even with a "transmitter".
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Post by fluke on May 17, 2009 16:39:28 GMT -5
A guy I used to work with wrote this up about a week ago. It goes along very well with the discussion.
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Post by JC Lamont on May 27, 2009 21:19:32 GMT -5
we're all closer to Hitler than to Christ. Wow. I NEVER would have thought that of myself, and yet its scarily true. Of all of us. *shudder* Very deep.
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Post by J Jack on May 27, 2009 23:28:28 GMT -5
Personally, I find the villains I find myself liking to be the best. Human yet inhumane, cruel yet with a purpose. A villain is no longer believable the instant they become that stereotypical villain who wants to destroy the world blah blah blah. A believable villain is one who uses their thugs properly, is greater than the hero but yet flawed in moral and ethics. You like them, yet you despise their methodology, achieving victory by burning an innocent village with women and children but yet they are likeable and their end goal is one you can relate to. Term Limits, a novel by someone I cannot recall. An ex SEAL and two of his buddies kill politicians to try and reverse the corruption of the United States. Flawed methods? Yes. Likeable villain? Yes. Agree with the end goal? Yes. That is a villain, the villain who is evil only by their acts, not their personality or end goal.
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Post by Spokane Flyboy on May 28, 2009 2:30:13 GMT -5
we're all closer to Hitler than to Christ. Wow. I NEVER would have thought that of myself, and yet its scarily true. Of all of us. *shudder* Very deep. It's not true of me. *tries to hide behind him the gas chambers and mass graves he's dug in an abandoned lot*
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Post by Divides the Waters on May 28, 2009 14:17:10 GMT -5
we're all closer to Hitler than to Christ. Wow. I NEVER would have thought that of myself, and yet its scarily true. Of all of us. *shudder* Very deep. Well, I can't claim the concept as original; in fact it was my friend who brought that particular analogy/quote to my attention. But he got what I was trying to say, and encapsulated it perfectly.
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Post by waldenwriter on Jun 3, 2009 12:11:26 GMT -5
I'm not sure what makes the perfect villain. I used to think of bad guys as being like the baddies in James Bond films - like Auric Goldfinger, Ernst Blofeld (the guy with the cat), and more recently Elliot Carver and Le Chiffre.
But bad guys vary. One good fantasy example is a video game I played called Tales of Symphonia. In this game, these half-elf beings called Desians are considered the bad guys. But in reality, they are just the underlings of an even more evil hierarchy of "angels" called Cruxis that is seeking a human vessel for the goddess Martel under the guise of the Journey of Regeneration that the heroine Colette undertakes. Also, there are characters who are on different sides than once thought - Kratos, a mercenary who travels with Colette, betrays her and her companions to Cruxis but then changes tactics and helps them in the end; and the once-thought-bad Yuan and Botta are actually part of an underground resistance movement called the Renegades who are fighting the Desians.
So villains are complicated.
Personally, I haven't given much thought to the complexity of my villains; they have been pretty much just bad and that was it. This has given me something to think about.
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Post by Spokane Flyboy on Jun 3, 2009 21:55:02 GMT -5
Real world villains are rarely completely evil. I'm reminded of a t-shirt from a website that sells nothing but offensive t-shirts. One said, "What about all the GOOD THINGS Hitler did?" It gave me pause for a second when my mind basically said, "united a broken nation and rebuilt its economy while giving hope to the masses." That's just for starters, I'm sure. He'll be forever remembered for the evil he committed, however, no matter what good he may have done for his people.
For children's books, a villain with the bumbling idiot henchmen may be entertaining and perhaps less scary for them. But I think a real villain is something altogether unnerving, something that good/righteous men must stopped even though they know they may sacrifice everything only to fail. Though they may waver as individuals, they hold fast as brothers (or sisters).
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lexkx
Full Member
How nice to know that if you go down the hole, Dad will fish you out.
Posts: 125
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Post by lexkx on Jul 1, 2009 14:39:03 GMT -5
Not to beat a dead horse, but one of the worst, most basic of all evil villains in history is not evenly matched with his arch-enemy. Satan can be as big and as bad as he wants--and he certainly will do it--but he will never be more evil than God is good. He may be bigger and badder than we are (yup, with all that seemingly limitless capacity for corruption and destruction), but he will never be more powerful than Christ was on the cross. When Satan and God face each other, both of them know who is stronger and who will win. Never any question. We can forget this because when we see them we do not see an extraordinarily powerful God and a puny, puffed-up devil. It's hard to see Satan properly from any viewpoint other than when we are lifted in the arms of Jesus. Villains should be identifiable. And should be vanquished by the end of the tale. But, though evil may be greater than we are, God is greater than both. Write your heroes and their enemies with that in mind, so God will shine all the greater.
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Post by veritasseeker90 on Jul 4, 2009 22:22:16 GMT -5
This is not at all deep, but I really like villians that you want to hate, yet find yourself liking.
Off topic a bit, but I went to my sister's college graduation where the chaplain spoke. It was the wierdest thing, because he had this deep voice that was just so calming, yet my fingers were itching for paper. He would have a made a good villian in my book.
A villian who can be villianous (sp?) yet put you at ease immediately. I don't know, I guess it makes the betrayel that much more horrific.
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Post by The Blue Collared Philosopher on Jul 5, 2009 22:50:45 GMT -5
I think the best villians are designed from Satan. After all, if you think about it, he and his demons are our only enemies. If you design a villian after Satan, you find a villian that offers things that are VERY desirable, yet destroys you. This kind of villian is very really and we ALL know what it feels like to meet this kind of villian. Villians designed after Satan are the villians that we all love because they are so appealing to us and despise because we know they are evil.
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Post by renblack on Oct 30, 2009 17:22:14 GMT -5
So, what's the difference between the hero turned villain, like Anakin - Darth Vader verses modeling a villain after Satan?
Where is the line of atonement in the end? Darth Vader earns some redemption through sacrificing his life to kill the Emperor, but when has a villain past that line and into the Emperor's role as fundamentally evil. And if so, are we more like Anakin (all like sheep have gone astray...) while the Emperor fulfills the role of Satan?
And then there's always the versatility of how we all perceive Satan.
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Post by draperjc on Oct 31, 2009 15:10:27 GMT -5
What you get with Darth Vader and the Emperor is a bad guy team that you don't quite get from Satan unless you build in a duped evil henchman. In Return of the Jedi the Emperor is evil all the way. He is there for you to hate. Darth Vader goes through a redemptive process and becomes a sympathetic figure in the end.
Another great villain team that does this is Col. Nathan R. Jessup and Lt. Kendricks in A Few Good Men. Kendricks is just plain ol' bad and quite a jerk to boot. But Col. Jessup needs to be sympathetic character. You see he's the bad guy but you understand why he does what h does and what his motivations are.
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Post by brianjones on Nov 25, 2009 23:48:28 GMT -5
I think like some one else said a villain you can empathize with is important. That is to say you can understand why he became a villain not necessarily agree with what he has chosen to do with his life.
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