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Post by veryblessedmom on Jun 24, 2009 14:50:58 GMT -5
VeryBlessedMom, I'm with Tris. It's okay that it isn't revealed until near the end that someone besides who they suspected is the real villain (like in the first Spy Kids movie), but this person needs to have been in the story before then, imo. Oh, they've been running from him since chapter 8. I'm on 23. They thought he was more minor. They had never been face to face with him and neither had I. I can't just make my characters do stuff, even when I know what stuff they need to do. I have to know them to know what they would say, why they would say it and how they would say it. As for getting to know your characters, do I have a deal for you! Check out my $14.99 product called Character Creation for the Plot-First Novelist. You will certainly become acquainted with your villain if you take him through that system. I might try that later. Right now I just ask them questions in my head and they tell me. Who are you? Tell me about your childhood? I can figure out what makes them tick and then I know what they would do in any situation I put them in. I can also figure out when they would never do something I really want them to do. I'm very character driven.
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Jun 27, 2009 8:13:36 GMT -5
LOL, well, now I'm really going to sound like Mr. Salesman. I have another product for character-driven novelists. It's called How To Find Your Story. It starts with what you know (character) and grows plot from there. End of sales pitch. Jeff
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Post by veryblessedmom on Jun 27, 2009 18:55:46 GMT -5
Do I get a discount if I buy it and The Art and Craft? LOL
Seriously, I should finish my rough draft tonight. I've been carrying this baby inside for 9 months now. Next comes the raising of this offspring.
I plan to get some books on writing and start my rewrite. I couldn't handle reading those while I wrote. They made me so worried I was doing it wrong that I got writer's block every time I read someone's tip.
Maybe your book can help me with this problem I have. When someone critiques my chapters and says, "You need to write tighter"or "Your description needs to be more organic," or "You need to work on grammar." I have no problem accepting it and trying to improve. All that stuff is mine. I am responsible for that part.
When I'm told to change how my characters met or something about their personality, I'm at a loss. The story just showed up in my head. Maybe I create my characters and story, but I have no idea how it happens. They just are. Writing is like reading for me. I sit down and write a chapter and say, "Ooh, I didn't know the meth lab was there. " Then there's the bigger framework of the story that I just know, but didn't decide.
The way I write, I feel like a reporter. I document what's happening. I never feel like I'm orchestrating it. So when someone suggests I change the story itself, I don't know how. It's as if I said, "I met my husband at McDonald's when I was 17." Then someone said. "No, you should have met him at church when you were 21." It just happened that way. I don't know how to make it different.
My story is full of allegories, but I find them. I don't make them. I thought a vampire story would be an allegory for a lost person seeking the light. Instead, my story is about a Christian who is depressed. He had a plan and thought God was on board. When God allowed something unfair to happen, he's disappointed with God. God never leaves him, but his circumstances keep him from feeling God's presence. He dwells so much on what he lost, he can't see the blessings that came with God's plan.
I know, I'm crazy. Do you have a book for that?
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Post by Christian Soldier on Jun 27, 2009 19:15:08 GMT -5
Hmm... I hate to say it, but I think you're dong fine, vbm. Obviously I'm saying this without having read your work, but the best stories happen they way you describe. The trick, for me anyway, is to write it in creative mode and edit it in analytical mode. Problem is, I don't think that works with women. Somehow you gals tend to operate both at the same time. From a male perspective, that's impossible, but so is operating using only one part or the other of a person's brain to most women. . . as far as I can tell anyway.
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Post by veryblessedmom on Jun 27, 2009 19:51:51 GMT -5
Thanks CS. No, I'm like that too. I have to be inspired to write, but I can analyze it anytime. My kids have to be in bed and my husband asleep or at work to write. I cannot think about tense, words to avoid, etc. when I write. Later I can go back and look for those. I can do that while the kids watch tv.
I heard about a book called Men are like Waffles and Women are like Spaghetti. A speaker said it was about how men think in compartments like a waffle and women's thoughts all run together. That's why women can multitask and men have work mode and home mode.
We'll I think like a waffle. I have modes and have trouble jumping from square to square. I'm a stay-at-home mom who is terrible at multi-tasking. If I'm cooking, I want the kids to stay in another room. If they interrupt me, I'm slow to change modes. I'm very single minded.
My husband would make a great stay-at-home dad. I'm the one who loves recliners and channel surfing too.
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Post by morganlbusse on Jun 28, 2009 10:07:18 GMT -5
As far as the advice people give you about your story, apart from the mechanics (tightening the plot, more description, etc...) its your story so do with it as you like. That being said, sometimes new eyes might see a subplot in your story that could be "better" if tweaked just a little. But in the end, your story is up to you (until you start running it by editors It sounds like you share your story with others while its in rough draft. Just me personally, I do not let anyone read my stuff until I've given it my best, when I believe my plot is fully realized and I've done all my rewrites and revisions. That way my reader has the full picture. But that's just me As far as your villain and what he should say, questions I would ask of him are: Why is he chasing your characters (or wanting them harm, or whatever)? What made him become the villain (parents or upbringing, something devastating happened earlier in life, power has corrupted him?) Why does he think he's in the right? Something about villains are they are people to. They have a life, a history, a reason inside their mind on why they do what they do. If you figure out his story, he'll probably tell you why he wants your main characters and what he'd say to them when he finally meets them
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Post by veryblessedmom on Jun 28, 2009 11:13:29 GMT -5
Oh, I spent some quality time with my bad guy. I know about his upbringing. I knew his motives before I got to that point in the story, I just didn't know him well enough to have him speak. I cannot just move my characters around like puppets. I've tried and they argue with me.
I did finish my draft last night.
Since this is my first writing project ever, I had to have people look at it. I had no clue at all about the craft. They also gave me perspective.
Since I see it play out in my head, sometimes I forget others don't. If there is a question about setting, etc I go back to fill in gaps.It's not a matter of what I want. I never want to sound arrogant when someone with more experience suggests a change. I really want to be teachable so I need to know how to fix this glitch in me.
I'm very unconscious of my creative process. It's like I watch and give an account. To change it feels like a lie and I don't know how to get past that. I never consciously say, "this needs to happen," or "they should do that." I've tried to change things but it never works.
A subplot has developed as I got to know my characters better. Their back stories are too interesting to be ignored. I'm adding the subplot and going back to write a prequel.
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Post by Christian Soldier on Jun 28, 2009 20:23:45 GMT -5
Sometimes it is hard to know what happened until you know what will happen, no? I write all my papers and such that way: I write the middle and end first. Oh, I'll have something there as a warm up and place holder, but it'll get deleted and rewritten in the second draft. My novel will be the same way.
So, I suppose what I'm saying is: you go girl!
As for the advice to change this and that, I agree 100% with Morwena: always be true to your characters and story. One of my most popular short stories I left exactly as it was for the simple reason that everyone got angry with the ending. Good. I wanted them mad. They'd get so mad that they'd reread it, again and again. I picked that one up from some of the Russian authors I love so much.
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Post by veryblessedmom on Jun 28, 2009 20:41:25 GMT -5
Thanks for the support.
I read on the ACFW Loop where a lady wrote a mss. She changed some things after a critique. It wasn't the way she wanted it but the suggestions came from someone with more experienced. She did that over and over for a year. Then she had her shot with an editor.
They liked it except... for all the changes she had made. Her original plans for the story were more along the lines of what that editor was looking for.
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Jun 29, 2009 7:31:07 GMT -5
No book for craziness. Pills, maybe...
I'm with the others: it wounds like you're doing fine.
When people give subjective comments about your story, just remember that they're subjective. Evaluate them and enact them or not according to how much sense it makes to you and how much you trust the person as a critic of such things.
I love that you're discovering your story and characters as you go. Discovery is possibly the most delightful part of writing fiction. However, then you need to come back and impose structure on it. The brilliance of an idea might come to you as random and meandering inspiration, but the book can't be random and meandering or your reader won't stick with you.
Brainstorm and fly by the seat of your pants first. Just get it all out on the page. But come back later to make it all look intentional.
And really, having a good idea of your main characters before you start is not a fun-of-discovery-killer as you might imagine.
Jeff
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Post by veryblessedmom on Jun 29, 2009 12:43:50 GMT -5
Oh, Yeah. My next plan is to read my story and take notes. Birth dates, physical descriptions, seasonal change, time lines. I want to clear up inconsistencies.
Also, my characters and their habits developed along the way. They were a little more flat at the beginning.
Some things about the story did change as I got to know my story and characters better. I have a subplot that came to life at the end. I have to weave elements of that in and write a chapter that will open the door for my prequel.
I'm as excited about my rewrite as I was to get the story out of my head.
I'm going to a Christian Fiction Workshop in August. So excited since my writing group is mostly non-fiction writers and the most we can bring in is 3 pages. I get a day and a half to workshop my first 50 pages.
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Jun 30, 2009 7:33:05 GMT -5
What workshop are you going to? I'm teaching at the Greater Philadelphia Christian Writer's Conference in early August. Is that the one you're attending?
Jeff
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Post by veryblessedmom on Jun 30, 2009 7:43:52 GMT -5
No, afraid not. I'm going to a very small Fri-Sat workshop at Myrtle Beach SC--ACFW of the Carolinas. When I say small, I mean like 5-15 people total. But that's a good thing. More individual attention.
I think someone involved has published spec too.
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Jul 1, 2009 7:47:40 GMT -5
Cool. Small ones are very fun.
Tell 'em about Marcher Lord Press and The Anomaly. ;-)
And have a great time.
Jeff
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Post by pixydust on Jul 1, 2009 13:15:36 GMT -5
Workshops are wonderful! And really help you get the craft stuff buzzing in your head.
For the next ms I would suggest writing just a little bit and then spending a few days/weeks just studying your characters before you write any more. This will make the revision process easier. It's a lot harder to change character stuff than plot stuff. And the more you know your characters when you start the more exciting the process will be writing the ms. You have more of an invested interest in what happens to them.
I'm a character-driven novelist, and it sounds like you might be too. I'd suggest Jeff's package as a great learning tool.
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