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Post by myrthman on Jul 12, 2011 19:05:33 GMT -5
In my fantasy setting, I have a character who greatly resembles our Heavenly Father. I have seen other authors do this (Lewis' Aslan comes to mind, among others), but I'm wondering just how much or how little to include. I certainly don't want to exclude Him, but I also don't want to go too far with my own ideas and risk misrepresenting Him.
As it stands now, "Lumen" is the ultimate hero of my world's over-arching story (which might be bigger than a single book), but he is not the protagonist. He's personally involved in the acts of creation, redemption, and final victory and also mentioned by other characters in dialog and writing. He has followers as well as those who don't know or don't care to know him.
Should he have more "face time" as a character in his own right? Less? As a reader, what has been your reaction to a Jehovah-esque character in a story you've read? Have you experienced a similar dilemma as a writer? Other thoughts?
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Post by birdnerd on Jul 13, 2011 7:08:15 GMT -5
The problem with God as a character is that unless he chooses to be vulnerable, there's no real challenge you can throw at him.
Likewise, having him too accessible to the rest of the characters makes them the next best thing to invulnerable, too.
... or if they are still vulnerable, God swoops in, saves the day, and you literally have deus ex machina.
I think Lewis handled it pretty well with Aslan just showing up now and again to give the characters a kick in the complacency or take charge only when there was no way the other characters were going to win.
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Post by choosybeggar on Jul 13, 2011 17:03:33 GMT -5
Funny, I'm still hashing things out in my latest story containing a God character, so my opinions aren't quite what they will be in the future.
I've gone somewhat the large-part route. God does not appear as a character per sé, but He is pivotal to the plot and story. I have also gone somewhat close to what you (birdnerd) have called a literal deus ex machina. But that's realistic.
While having God on our side doesn't make everything pansy-picking easy, it's an incredible factor in our lives and success in our personal adventures. What would Jesus' ministry look like if He couldn't heal people, multiply food, forgive sins, and raise the dead? I wouldn't want to read His story, because He'd be lacking the power critical to His mission.
We live by the same set of rules. How can we expect to live a good story if we can't tap into God's power? (And love and grace!)
Written stories are no different. You can make a good story only if the good guys have what it takes. In my story, they have the same power Jesus had, all of it. It DOES make the climax of the book a little different than it would be otherwise, but won't take anything away. In fact, I think it'll add quite a bit. I don't know of any good examples of deus ex machina, so I'm out to pioneer the first one.
There is a difference here, though. In no part does God do any swooping. His children simply conquer the enemy with the power He's laid out for them, just like real life. I see that as realistic and entertaining. Heh. I understand this is quite a spiel. I thought I'd have little to say, but it turned into pretty adamant argument.
Return thoughts, anyone?
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Post by myrthman on Jul 13, 2011 17:20:58 GMT -5
Choosy, that's kind of the way my story seems to be going too. My ubervillain and my God character will have the FINAL battle, but my MCs have to prepare the way for it to happen with antagonists trying to stop them and/or prepare for the villain's victory. I may not even write that part into the story, but in the world-building stage, I have to know how it will all come together so I can write toward it.
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Post by Ray Dawson on Aug 12, 2011 16:27:47 GMT -5
I know I'm new but I thought I would throw my 2 cents in. I find that most "God characters" are best when they are made more vague or less involved in the plot so the reader doesn't get stuck in a box trying to define the authors view of God instead of enjoying the story. I think Christians for the most part agree on God's larger ideals but the nitty-gritty can be a dangerous place if the audience is larger due to opinions and mis-understandings. That is true for me anyway, especially with fiction.
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Post by myrthman on Aug 13, 2011 14:17:07 GMT -5
Good point. And welcome to our playground off the map!
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Post by Divides the Waters on Aug 17, 2011 20:35:53 GMT -5
In my own novel, I have faced this same quandary. I tend to err on the side of caution, as I have a hard enough time putting words into God's mouth, as it were. I like to make sure that the reader understands that he is a "real" person (as opposed to a mere belief), but I also don't care to lay it on too thick. Most of the time, the themes of love, authority, justice and mercy will all be relayed through the actual people in your novel, but sometimes it takes that "little bit more" to show what it is we stand for. The most effective usage of a fictional portrayal of God (outside of Lewis) is, regrettably, in an unpublished book. (The good news is, it is being looked at by a publisher.) But most of the time I tend to think that less is more. A great deal may depend on the comfort level of the author.
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Torrias
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Post by Torrias on Feb 6, 2012 20:14:02 GMT -5
I would personally say "not too much face-time," but I don't think I have any reasons/arguments that haven't already been spoken here. The Aslan example certainly strikes me as ideal for God as a character. In my own writing, I've gone more in the Tolkien direction, having God be the Creator/Redeemer and all but figuring into the story through the lives, faith, experiences, and choices/consequences of the characters, rather than showing up in person in the story (though unlike what I remember of the LOTR books, my guys do make IC references to God, whether positively or negatively, and may make deliberate choices based on their faith in Him above what they see around them).
The problem I've run into, myself, is how to handle transplanting my own faith/worldview into another world, under the same God, without simply giving that world a Jesus figure with a different name and slightly different details (Lewis somehow managed it marvelously, but it seems it'd be difficult to prevent it from becoming a creativity cop-out or a misrepresentation if I tried it). If my world hasn't experienced a pure allegory of the Messiah, then what exactly do people base their notions of open-armed forgiveness on? Do they have a sacrificial system presently in place? Are they looking toward some kind of Savior in the future (since it's in God's real character)? What sort of holy writings and oral teachings do they have, what "sure and steadfast anchor of the soul" can they grab hold of and sacrifice everything for?
Anyway, just my add-on to the notion of God as a character, since so much has already been said on it here, lol. Kind of the other side of the coin?
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Post by Kessie on Feb 7, 2012 1:01:15 GMT -5
I've chewed on this for years. I haven't hit on any good solutions, myself. If I put Christianity in a fantasy world, it doesn't fit the world. If I make Jesus a character, I can't do his personality justice because I just can't seem to capture His majesty.
Besides Aslan, the very best gods I've ever read were in Dragonlance. I got that same little shiver of awe reading them. I recommend chugging through a bit of a random Dragonlance trilogy just to see how well they write their gods.
Right now, I'm writing an urban fantasy where the main character is a Christian and has some serious magic that's just broken through. His mother accuses him of being into witchcraft, and it's really unnerved him and undermined his confidence in his power. So the Big Bad is preying on this insecurity to keep the hero from fighting back, tormenting him with the fear that using magic has made him lose his salvation.
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Torrias
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Post by Torrias on Feb 7, 2012 13:39:57 GMT -5
That urban fantasy idea is awesome. Powers of whatever kind are cool in a story, but the real fun comes in the psychological/relational stuff kicked up by them.
I haven't read any Dragonlance (only a handful of Forgotten Realms novels, along with rulebooks). I wouldn't even have thought of them; I get a sour look on my face at thought of pantheons and all their inherent illogic, but I get what you're saying about just seeing how other authors handle "divine" in their world. Sounds like I might have more research to do now. Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn trilogy, BTW, handles it all with an amazing combination of visceral grit and delicacy (I could go on and on about liking that set ;D ). Not really "shiver of awe" material, for me, but dealing very well with the destruction and regaining of faith (of a fairly generic sort, granted, but it fits the setting) in a way I haven't seen happen anywhere else.
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Post by Kessie on Feb 7, 2012 17:10:08 GMT -5
I'm dancing around Brandon Sanderson at the moment, can't decide whether I want to read him or not. I'll give him another look and see if I can get the first book at the library.
I don't have any problem reading about pantheons because I've always liked mythology. (Norse > Greek!) So reading that sort of thing in a novel is just one step up from Hercules and Odin and Perseus and Loki. I think it gives the writer a little more freedom to experiment. Tolkien had a pantheon (the Valar that everybody prayed to) and nobody seems to mind when Frodo screams, "Elbereth Gilthoniel!" (sp?)
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Post by yoda47 on Feb 7, 2012 17:40:52 GMT -5
Sanderson is really good.
I can reccomend Elantris wholeheartedly. The Mistborn series is really good, but I'm only ever planning re-reading the first book in that series for reasons that I can't get into (unless you don't mind major spoilers.)
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Post by Bainespal on Feb 7, 2012 18:31:48 GMT -5
I can reccomend Elantris wholeheartedly. The Mistborn series is really good, but I'm only ever planning re-reading the first book in that series for reasons that I can't get into (unless you don't mind major spoilers.) Relevant to this thread, Elantris explicitly uses our word "God" to refer to its Creator figure. However, God does not appear as a character. The treatment of the concept of divinity in the novel struck me as universalist, but I wasn't wholly opposed to all of the themes (which is basically what we can expect from anything, I think). Elantris is the only Sanderson novel I have read, except for the last two Wheel of Time novels that Sanderson finished after the death of Robert Jordan. I want to read Mistborn and especially The Way of Kings someday. Yoda, I don't want spoilers, but is there a good reason that I should reconsider reading Mistborn?
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Torrias
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Post by Torrias on Feb 7, 2012 18:36:31 GMT -5
Tolkien had one God, Iluvatar. The Valar (and Sauron, and his master Melkor) were powerful angels. Gandalf was a lesser angel (so were Saruman and the balrog; Gandalf wasn't kidding when he told the party in Moria that this enemy was beyond any of them). I haven't read the entire Silmarilion---only the first two parts, about Creation and the fall of Melkor and a chunk of the Elven population leaving---but I seem to recall "praying" to the Valar being explained somewhere (perhaps in something else Tolkien wrote about it?) as basically acknowledging their power and goodness, thanking them for their part in singing everything into being under Iluvatar's direction/power (each Vala was associated with some aspect of Creation that he/she had been involved in singing, and I'm thinking Elbereth was responsible for the stars, light/guidance/hope/beauty in the darkness), and sometimes asking for some intervention of theirs (kind of like praying to the saints, I guess, as Tolkien was Catholic). That, and the notion of their very names (and, hence, reputation/works) having power. People in Middle-Earth could, of course, develop their own ideas about Valar being gods and could choose to actually worship them, but ultimately in that cosmology, there's only one God.
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Post by yoda47 on Feb 7, 2012 19:26:02 GMT -5
Yoda, I don't want spoilers, but is there a good reason that I should reconsider reading Mistborn? Hmmm... how to phrase this.... Do you agree, disagree, or VIOLENTLY disagree with the advice to a writer "don't be afraid to kill your darlings" as a writer, I feel one way about this.. as a READER, I have a ... strong reaction ... towards writers who ... take this advice to heart more literally than most.... Was that too specific?
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