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Post by Resha Caner on Nov 10, 2009 19:18:55 GMT -5
I philosophize a lot. And I ramble a lot. Sorry, but I do. Amongst my latest random wanderings, I pondered what would happen if there were an angel (or group of angels) who did not believe people existed.
I thought that might be a cool story idea. But then I wondered if it's been done before - that often seems to be the case. If not, I don't really have the time to write it, so I thought I'd throw it out here and see if anyone would philosophize and ramble with me to hack out a collaborative story.
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Nov 12, 2009 19:12:22 GMT -5
Intriguing idea. But how could they not know?
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Post by juniperlee on Nov 12, 2009 19:24:50 GMT -5
Definitely an interesting idea. To answer Jeff's question: I guess that would be an integral part of the story. Trying to explain away the existence of humans in the minds of a certain group of angels but I think you'll run into one major problem - there is a certain number of angels. No more are made and nor are the ones that exist destroyed. (I could be wrong about this and please correct me if I am but I think that's right???) So all of the current angles would have been present at the Creation of man...how could you explain that away?
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Post by Resha Caner on Nov 12, 2009 21:34:07 GMT -5
You're right, that is a problem that needs to be dealt with. But the Bible says very little about angels. Most of what people say about them comes from outside the Bible, so the "midrash", if you will, is not something that is definitely authoritative. There is much room for speculation.
So, the number of angels and what they have been doing is up for debate. One idea that is different from what juniper said comes from Moses Maimonides - a medieval Jewish philosopher - and I happen to like his take on angels (with my own spin thrown in). Basically, angels are God's "thoughts" put into action. They only exist so long as they have a function to fulfill. Whether they are numbered or infinite, and whether some are eternal, then, is unknown.
Starting then, at the beginning, when God said, "Let there be light", the idea is that this means he sent an angel to execute his will for the production of light ... and so forth.
I don't think it is certain that all angels are either about the Throne or sent to guard humans. Maybe an angel was sent to maintain the orbit of a planet about a sun that is 300 million light years from earth. So, he's never seen a human - only heard rumors of them.
The story would probably hit several issues along the way, but what I like about it is that it turns the typical question on its head. Rather than people not believing in angels, it is the angels who don't believe in people.
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Nov 13, 2009 10:03:49 GMT -5
Wow, angels as thoughts. What a speculative idea! Very cool.
As for angels trying to explain away humans, it sounds like Iran trying to explain away the Holocaust. Hard to do that in the face of all the evidence and living witnesses, but they try anyway.
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Post by Resha Caner on Nov 13, 2009 10:08:15 GMT -5
Yes, but they do it anyway, don't they. That's the point. For those of us who believe in angels (or God), it is hard to understand how someone couldn't believe in the face of all the "evidence".
But people have constructed very elaborate schemes so that they don't have to believe. Such it would be with the story.
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Nov 13, 2009 10:39:26 GMT -5
So it would have to be either before the fall or, perhaps, before one of the new rebellions spoken of in Revelation.
A problem with the latter idea is that this rebellion is between the beasts and men against God. Hard to pretend men don't exist when you're allied with them and they comprise 85% of your army.
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Post by Resha Caner on Nov 13, 2009 13:06:28 GMT -5
This is sort of like arguing with the teacher. One wonders whether it is a wise thing to do. ;D
But, I think you are making an assumption that the angels were monolithic. Who is to say there was only one contingent of fallen angels? Some obviously tried to fight God, but maybe others tried to run away.
Since the fall of the angels occurred before the fall of man, if some ran away, they never would have seen the creation. So why should they believe in it? "Because," said demon #1 to demon #2, "if they do exist, think of the army we could make of them."
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Nov 13, 2009 17:49:28 GMT -5
I like it!
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Post by dizzyjam on Nov 14, 2009 2:01:04 GMT -5
Definitely an interesting idea. To answer Jeff's question: I guess that would be an integral part of the story. Trying to explain away the existence of humans in the minds of a certain group of angels but I think you'll run into one major problem - there is a certain number of angels. No more are made and nor are the ones that exist destroyed. (I could be wrong about this and please correct me if I am but I think that's right???) So all of the current angles would have been present at the Creation of man...how could you explain that away? Just reading through this thread as one final thread I'll have read before going to bed. Not even sure if I'll finish it or not. Really tired. According to what I understand, one third of the angels went with Lucifer (or Satan if you prefer) when he rebelled, so on the Angelic level we have a two to one advantage there even without the power of the Holy Spirit within us or even without ourselves as prayer warriors. There's nowhere I am aware of that says God didn't - or won't - replace those angels with newly created ones. He's God, He can do what He wants to and create ten times more angels if He so chose to. That's His prerogative. Anyway, just my two cents worth for what I've read so far in this thread.
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Post by dizzyjam on Nov 14, 2009 2:05:26 GMT -5
Yep. I finished it. I like what I've read. I'll post more tomorrow when I have rested.
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Post by Resha Caner on Nov 14, 2009 2:11:15 GMT -5
But it might be more fun to hear what you have to say while you're slap happy. If you stay up I've got chips and chocolate ... I mean salsa for your ice cream ... uh, now I'm sounding like metalikhan, so I guess I need sleep, too.
Later.
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Post by juniperlee on Nov 14, 2009 7:14:10 GMT -5
Good point dizzy. God could just make more if He wanted to...He is God after all. So following along that train of thought then I guess you could easily have your premise of angles not believing humans exist. You would just have to make sure you explain all of this in the story. And it would be a very intriguing story...certainly one I would be interested in reading!
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Post by Resha Caner on Nov 14, 2009 12:37:01 GMT -5
Or you could write it juniper. I'm offering the idea for sale - the price being that I get to attend the Pulitzer dinner with you, and you'll introduce me as your "mentor".
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Post by juniperlee on Nov 14, 2009 12:40:20 GMT -5
I think I'll call you my muse...sounds more "speculative"
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