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Post by tris on Nov 12, 2009 9:21:58 GMT -5
When you are writing a piece from the perspective of a teenager and his is the only POV being used, how does one refer to his parents?
I have nieces and nephews that refer to their parents by their first names, but that's not the kind of character I had in mind.
When there's interaction between the parent and teenager, how do I refer to the parent? Do I keep referring to them as Tim's mom/dad? Do I use their first names? At some point I have to identify who they are name-wise, but it has turned into an awkward situation.
There is a lot of dialogue between the parents and teenager, so this is a pivotal point that keeps hanging me up while writing.
This hasn't come up for me before, because I usually switch POVs between two or three main characters. For this particular piece, I'm trying to stick with just the main character's POV.
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Nov 12, 2009 9:27:41 GMT -5
You refer to them with the name/term that the viewpoint character thinks of them as. If that's Dad, then call him Dad. If he thinks of this person as Father or Daddy or Eric, have him refer to him with that term.
To establish his real name, you can have the viewpoint character overhear other people calling him by his first name, or he can find mail addressed to the father, etc.
Jeff
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Post by beckyminor on Nov 12, 2009 9:32:48 GMT -5
Yeah, I think using the mom or dad's names would be slightly awkward, since a then who calls their parents by their names creates a certain image, for sure. Have you tried just using Mom and Dad like you would use any other proper name in the narrative. i.e.-Dad paced narrow strip of linoleum that ran between the oven and kitchen island, rubbing his neck and sighing. (Or whatever...I'm not going to claim that sentence was any sort of genius. ) In order to reveal the characters given names, I think that would be easy enough by using a third party adult who would say the parents' names, or even using some sort of device like mail your teenage protagonist is flipping through. I guess it also depends on how deep you keep your POV (if it's third, not first...I don't think you said.) If you're in third, you could always "back the camera out" a few steps on occasion, and that might open up opportunity to use your Mom and Dad character's names. Those are the options I can think of on a foggy morning brain...hope they're useful. ***edit: It happened again! Jeff is always faster than me, and posts what I'm thinking while I type! Good thoughts, Jeff! What he said....****
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Nov 12, 2009 9:35:48 GMT -5
LOL--you do beat me most of the time, Becky.
[Hear that, everyone? Becky beats me! Someone...please...help...]
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Post by metalikhan on Nov 12, 2009 11:29:12 GMT -5
Hearing another character say the parent's name has worked well for the teenager I've got in one of my WIP's. I've stayed deep in her POV so other than in the conversation, the parents' names never appears. They are always Mama and Dad, even in the dialogue tags; but aspects of their characters are developed by strictly filtering perceptions of them through the teenager's eyes.
I'm not sure it's even necessary that the parents' names appear in every story. When I thought about it, I realized I never regarded my mom as anything other than Mom and never viewed myself as Roberta's daughter. A 3rd person POV character can be focussed tightly enough that it's only a quarter step away from being 1st person.
One exercise I did while I was working this out was writing down an actual conversation with one of my folks. I thought I was going to have to limit a character's name to a pronoun; but I was surprised to see how naturally the dialogue flowed using Mom to refer to her and how much detail I could give about her without ever mentioning her name.
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Post by Resha Caner on Nov 12, 2009 14:31:43 GMT -5
You can also ask yourself if it's important that "Dad" have a name. If this is truly from the kid's POV, Dad doesn't need a name. My dad doesn't have a name (at least not for me). He's "Dad".
I work with a guy who goes by the nickname of "Gus". So, he's not "James", he's "Gus." Names are very important, and you can subtly convey information by how names are used.
In my magnum opus the main character is named Benn Kiegan, but not everyone calls him that. His commander calls him "Sergeant". His close friends call him "Byni". How they address him says a lot, doesn't it? I don't have to say: and then his friend so-and-so walked up and said, "Hi, Byni." All I need is "Hi, Byni." Or, what does it mean if his biggest enemy calls him "Byni". Suddenly it becomes condescending. When I'm angry with my dad, his name changes to "Father" ... and I don't have to cuss at him or even raise my voice to let him know I'm angry. When he's angry with me, he uses my middle name.
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Post by Teskas on Nov 12, 2009 18:34:24 GMT -5
A classic model for this is J. D. Salinger's handling of teenage POV in Catcher in the Rye. He also does a superb job of staying with his young hero's POV throughout the entire book.
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Post by metalikhan on Nov 12, 2009 23:15:05 GMT -5
Looking back at my own story with a teenager's POV, I noticed something else. The MC never refers to friends' parents by first name. It's always Sally's dad or Dave's mom. If she addresses them directly, she uses the honorific Mr. or Mrs. and their surname. And the same for other adults. The only time she calls an adult by the first name is if she doesn't know the person by any other name; but sometimes she falls back on Sir or Ma'am.
I think it's a formality of respect that's not so much in vogue these days (which also hints that my story is not in a contemporary time). I've even heard of teachers telling their students to call them by first name -- I just think that's weird!
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Post by tris on Nov 13, 2009 17:47:41 GMT -5
Thanks guys for all the input. I'm still wrestling with the mom and dad thing, because part of the plot involves seeing parents as real people, not just "parents". Also it's not first person, but third, so writing "Mom opened the fridge and placed the tomatoes inside" seems a little more awkward than "Tim's mom opened the refrigerator....etc."; especially when the sentence sets the stage or is describing some pertinent action. It reminds me of some of those sappy novels from middle school. Guess it's a personal quirk because those "sappy" novels turned out to be bestsellers!
Down in Texas, most adult ladies (especially teachers) are addressed as Miss First Name, regardless of whether they are single or married. I know I got raked over the coals by an English teacher (teaching a creative writing class, no less) who docked me a letter grade because I referred to a grandmotherly widow as Miss Hattie.
I do appreciate all the helpful insights. It's one of the biggest blessings to being a member of this forum. Thanks so much!
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Nov 13, 2009 19:41:31 GMT -5
Tris,
It doesn't matter that it's third person. You are (or should be) restricted to the thoughts of the viewpoint character. How that character refers to them is how you must refer to them, or it's a POV error.
Jeff
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Post by tris on Nov 13, 2009 21:54:13 GMT -5
Okay, so all those references in series like the Hardy Boys where the writer refers to Mr. Hardy (Frank and Joe's dad) when he's talking to them are POV errors?
Does that mean when showing the setting from the MC's viewpoint, it's not "his parents were curled up on the couch," but "Mom and Dad were curled up on the couch?"
It seems a little restrictive, especially since if you put a bunch of adults together there is variety in that they think of each other by description (his wingmate, the human commander of the rebel fleet) or name (Tycho) or even title (Commander Whatzhisname).
If the main character sees her as just "mom", then she becomes little more than a 2-dimensional cardboard cutout -- not the person he's going to turn to for advice or help.
I know I'm being really dense on this point. But as a prolific reader, it's hard to sort the dross from the gold, when the dross is on the bestseller's list. And I'm working really hard at reading through great writers not from a story viewpoint, but from a technical aspect. I finally got the "he said" and beats, but this thing on POV still has me mired.
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Post by metalikhan on Nov 13, 2009 23:44:21 GMT -5
It's been quite a while since I read Hardy Boys books. I think in that case there are things to keep in mind. The target audience for the series is/was young and not as likely to spot POV errors. Also, courtesy/respect toward elders and parents was subtly reinforced by using the honorific and surname -- a teaching mechanism. And you have to remember that fashions change. Omniscient POV's used to be completely acceptable -- but not nowadays! POV errors were not then as heinous a writing crime as they are considered to be now.
Either way would be acceptable without breaking POV. It's every kid's collective way of identifying Mom & Dad.
Let's see if this helps: Mom and Dad were curled up on the couch. My parents were curled up on the couch. His parents were curled up on the couch.
Mr. and Mrs. Smith were curled up on the couch. Jack and Jill were curled up on the couch.
In the first one, Mom and Dad are how the kid identifies the two people. This can be in either 1st person or 3rd limited.
In the second pair of sentences, my parents is the 1st person equivalent of the 3rd person his parents. It is the collective noun for the group Mom and Dad. This is staying within the POV of the kid. (The same applies if there is only one or other parent, such as the singular his mom, his dad.)
In the third pair of sentences, Mr. and Mrs. Smith and Jack and Jill are the names of the parents;but now it has moved to 3rd p. omniscient because it is the voice of the narrator identifying them rather than the POV voice of the kid. The only way it would not be a POV error is if the MC kid actually thinks of them or addresses them this way.
Not a Pulitzer prize example, but does this dad sound 2-dimensional?
********
Sally heard Dad say something. "What?" she called, walking toward him.
"Oh, for heaven's sake, put your teeth in." Her mom's voice sounded from inside the apartment.
Dad made a face at the open doorway, then reached under his coat into his shirt pocket. He made a great show of picking lint off his false teeth before popping them into his mouth. Sally was never sure whether to laugh or be ill when he did that -- she felt like both. At least, it wasn't as embarassing as when he rinsed them off in his water glass at a restaurant.
"What did you say?" Sally asked again when she was closer.
Her dad worked his jaws, settling the teeth into place, then glared at her. "I said if frogs had wings they wouldn't bump their butts when they jump."
********* The dimension for the parental character comes from the details the MC perceives. No name is necessary to bring this dad into focus.
Does any of this help or have I made it more confusing?
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Nov 14, 2009 12:11:03 GMT -5
Just because something achieves bestseller status doesn't mean it's done with excellence...
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Post by beckyminor on Nov 14, 2009 12:16:02 GMT -5
So, just curious...while I can see why 3rd person omniscient is frowned upon these days because it lacks intimacy, is it always *wrong* to use it? Are there never times a writer doesn't want to be so "tight" in on their POV character's perspective?
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Post by Resha Caner on Nov 14, 2009 12:24:40 GMT -5
A writer needs to understand things like POV, and must demonstrate a mastery of them as his/her career develops. But, at some point you gain enough respect to be awarded the license of artistry (that was supposed to be a cute way of saying "artistic license").
Personally, I'm arrogant enough to think I'm already there, but certain editors continue to tell me I'm not.
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