Craft question about scripture in fiction

[veryblessedmom]

OK, I know every coach, workshop, craft book, etc says not to be preachy. Make sure it's a story from a Christian world view but without an agenda. Don't quote scripture, let the story lead the reader to their own conclusion.

My question: Writers like Francine Rivers and Karen Kingsbury break the rules on all of that and are best sellers. How?

I've gotten the answers:
Just b/c they do it doesn't mean you should. You should strive for excellence in your craft.

They are now best sellers and can do what they want.

Next question: Does the average reader know or care about our craft rules?

Writers who read care. I can always tell when a writer has reviewed a book on amazon because it says things about the story having too many holes in the plot or not staying true to the genre. Those are the comments left by the handful of 2 star reviews. The rest are 4 and 5 stars just raving about how the story touched them.

Just wondering what you guys think.

[ryain]

I like how in Karen Hancock's Guardian King Series she uses scripture but writes as if it comes from the world that the story is in. I am trying to do the same thing in my novel, I never knew that it was "wrong" to have scripture in a novel.

[veryblessedmom]

I'm being told to strip it. That it makes it agenda fiction. I didnt know either.

[journeyman]

I have used a small paraphrased passage in dialog before to advance the story, but nothing that could be considered a monologue/rant directed at the reader.

Is this feedback coming from an editor or a writing coach?

[Christian Soldier]

BAH! Scripture in fiction doesn't make it agenda fiction, but make sure that it is in the plot somewhere and not just thrown in for no reason. Plus, you never want to follow any advice into the ground.

[tris]

What Christian Soldier said. VBM, check out Dee Henderson's stories. They're filled with scripture and not at all "agenda fiction".

[thogmaster]

Well, this is definitely a new one for me... But out of curiosity, is the editor a secular one? I've never had anyone tell me not to use scripture... although my own stuff hasn't been published yet.

Although, now that I think about it, are you explicitly showing the passage or whatever to be from scripture? I'm using a few verses here and there and implanting them just as a part of a debate that's going on inside a character between himself and God.
Agenda fiction, though... That's an interesting term. (But who doesn't write their works with a sort of agenda? I mean, there's always a goal in every piece of written work.)

[veryblessedmom]

No, not secular. But she is the first person who thought I should take it darker.

Paid coach/editor and reputable. I've gotten some good stuff from the critique.

Not taking it darker and I did go kinda old school CBA on it but I had a reason. But my idea could be very flawed since I am not published.

I've got a vampire story. Not the dark traditional stuff, more like CBA Twilight or I'm calling it Karen Kingsbury meets Ted Dekker. Their styles are marketable. I'm not going to get some lady who reads CBA romance to read CBA Dracula but she might try CBA Twilight b/c it's not speculative with romantic elements but romance with speculative elements.

I read an interview with Sue Dent I believe where she said something along the lines that Ted Dekker would have to write a vampire novel to get the CBA to accept it w/out fear of offending the core market.

I'm not Ted Dekker. So I thought about Francine Rivers' Redeeming Love. Heavy on the vulgar side of sexual sin but also so heavily Christian, lots of scripture, message might as well be in neon. The core market cannot miss the message and mistake it for erotica.

So, maybe I'm off on my approach. Maybe my story's agenda is highlighted too much and needs to be toned down. But I have a friend who is not willing to read my Christian vampire story b/c, in her words, she doesn't want to have to think too much while she's reading it to figure out the Christian message.

So anyway. Not trying to blame the editor for bad advice. Kingsbury and Rivers produce very message strong works of fiction and somehow got published. I'm just trying to figure out what the REAL die hard rules are and what's preference.

[ryain]

Some how this irks me. I don't know why it does. I want by novels to have a distinct message. I don't want them to be the type that if your christian you can see the message but if your not well you don't see it. Is that wrong?

As for Ted Dekker, I know his style is marketable, but his novels are becoming more and more secular. I just finished reading Skin (I know I know I'm a little behind) and couldn't really find anything christian in it. Also his writing is kinda gritty. But that being said I'm reading Green.

So if you find out the REAL die hard rules, let me know!

[tyroctar]

I think Scripture is very good in writing when used correctly. Even secular writers have qouted scripture before (normally out of context which as Christians we shouldn't do) but if we like how the bible says it i don't think we should go out of our way to find a 'new' fancy way of saying it. Right out of the horse's mouth, or well with the Bible, straight from Balaam's donkey's mouth.

I don't like Ted Dekker as much as say Frank Peretti, but I think its because at the end of Peretti's books you felt content. It was finished. No loose ends, no questions, you breathe (finally) knowing everything was resolved. At the end of a Ted Dekker book I'm just frustrated. Too many "What the heck?" questions left. My friend (who is not a writer and that maybe why we disagree) loves him and I stopped reading his books after Saint.

[ryain]

Mar 25, 2010 17:17:38 GMT -5 tyroctar said:

I don't like Ted Dekker as much as say Frank Peretti, but I think its because at the end of Peretti's books you felt content. It was finished. No loose ends, no questions, you breathe (finally) knowing everything was resolved. At the end of a Ted Dekker book I'm just frustrated. Too many "What the heck?" questions left. My friend (who is not a writer and that maybe why we disagree) loves him and I stopped reading his books after Saint.

I agree. Skin had a lame ending and Green, the conclusion or begining to his circle trilolgy, was LAME. Even my dad, also not a writer, who loves him said it was lame.(he gave me the all capitals) The novel was really dark and felt evil. I don't read him very much but I know he is a best seller so I try to glean some tips from him.

[waldenwriter]

I have used Scripture in my current novel, but only in the scene where my main character becomes a Christian and is reading a Bible another character gave her. Even then, I didn't use all the verses from the passages I chose, because I used the NIV and you can only use 25% of that without having to credit the copyright owners.

It is definitely good not to be preachy; I read a sci-fi novel by a local Christian author (and fellow member of the San Diego Christian Writers' Guild) and on my second read, I picked up on just how preachy it is. Granted, he self-published it so maybe an editor didn't get to look at it and tell him to tone down the preachiness. (I got a copy because he came and did a signing at the small Christian bookstore I was working for at the time). I think sci-fi and religion is particularly tricky because people either associate science with atheism or make the "Star Wars is evil and preaches New Age theology" argument. (I wonder if those people have heard the classic Force/duct tape geek joke - the one that goes "Duct tape is like the Force. It has a light side and a dark side and it holds the universe together").

If Scripture supports your story, by all means use it, I say. But don't overdo it. (Plus, with the newer versions, you can only use so much before you have to credit the publishers anyway). There are other ways of showing a Christian worldview in a speculative fiction work, aren't there?

[Kristen]

ryain said:

So if you find out the REAL die hard rules, let me know!

I'm increasingly convinced there are no "rules" in fiction writing -- only "guidelines." Because every writing coach seems to have a different set of them.

I don't see how you can write a realistic Christian story without at least paraphrasing scripture. I mean, if one character is counseling or discipling another, he's got to back up his advice with a Biblical precept, at least. Because that is what we do.

As the scripture references come organically out of the story, and as long as you don't implausibly have people quoting long passages verbatim, I think you're fine. (I say that mainly because many people don't memorize long passages anymore. If it's plausible that your character has done so -- well, I still would use short passages rather than long ones.)

[veryblessedmom]

Mar 28, 2010 19:21:47 GMT -5 Kristen said:

ryain said:

So if you find out the REAL die hard rules, let me know!

I'm increasingly convinced there are no "rules" in fiction writing -- only "guidelines." Because every writing coach seems to have a different set of them.

quote]
I agree. This paid professional had problems with things Jeff liked when he read part of my ms. Another professional wanted me to pull all my beats and descriptions of body and facial movements and told me to just let the characters speak. This was after a course at ACFW on showing said to describe body language rather than saying the character said it angrily.

Then there are best sellers who do nothing but tell. Best selling novels with all kinds of holes in the plot and characters flatter than the paper they are printed on.

I don't think John and Suzie Q Average Reader, reads the way writers do.

[morganlbusse]

I think in the end, preaching is when you are using your story in an overt way to get a message across. In other words, there is not as much thought to the characters or plot, rather, you have an agenda and your characters and plot become the vehicle to get that message across.

But I also think a strong story will have some kind of theme or message (redemption, overcoming fear, learning to share rather than be greedy, etc...). But that theme is woven organically throughout your story. I think of Christmas Carol with good old Scrooge. There was no preaching in that book, but you definitely knew the message the author was trying to get across.

As far as writing rules and guidelines, its good to know what's out there. There are definitely some steadfast rules (such as end every sentence with some kind of punctuation... lol). But then you need to write your own story. The question of change comes when you try to get published. If your editor (the one who wants to publish you, not just give you advice) wants you to change something, that's when you work through what you're willing to change and what you're willing die on a hill for. The editor will be the gatekeeper to get into publishing with that house.