On giving critiques

[beckyminor]

Hey fine Anomaly dwellers...just thought I'd gather some opinions here.

I've been humbled by a request from a fellow writer to do a large scale, macro critique of his novel, but I'm running into a bit of a snag. I only have the first section of the novel right now, and I'm finding that there are a lot of writing mechanics issues (i.e. paragraphing, typos) that aren't tidied up yet...I guess more than I expected from what my friend said before the exchange. So, I'm finding this stuff is making it hard for me to look at the "big picture" of story arc and other craft stuff.

Do I just get over it and critique it on those story and craft areas, doing my best to overlook the paragrpahing, formatting, spelling and grammar issues? Or do I tell this friend that I feel the manuscript is still a little too sloppy to undergo a major critique yet? What do you all think is the right time to ask for outside critique? I, personally, like to wait til I have the work as tight as I feel I can get it without outside opinions before I put in front of other eyes, but perhaps I'm unusual in this regard?

Opinions and reality checks welcome.

[Spokane Flyboy]

I'd say if the technical aspects of his writing are affecting your ability to critique the other aspects, I'd address them and let him know. Personally, I'd find it hard to critique a document that I had trouble reading clearly. It's easy to misread and misinterpret when the document is full of technical issues.

[j2starshine]

Um...is this the ten chapters I sent??? I agree that the ms should be as tight as possible for what you are doing. I would think the grammar, spelling, etc need to be addressed first, then one could look at the character development, plot arc, etc... I would be honest with the author and go from there depending on how you two decide what to do about it. Obviously, the author needs help and is seeking it, that's a good thing. The ms sounds like it hadn't received a basic critique yet and maybe that's what they need first. If it is mine, I wouldn't want you to have to drudge through something that isn't ready for a final read through, because that would defeat the purpose....the ms isn't ready yet. Thanks... I hope this helps regardless if it is mine or not....but I'll be waiting anxiously to see if it is or not...

[metalikhan]

I agree that the writing needs tidied up if the technical issues are making reading it difficult. When I see something that technically challenged, however, I tend to select two or three pages and show the person how a corrected version should look, even how to improve a few sentences (such as moving from passive to active or breaking up unwieldy sentences for clarity's sake). I do this just in case the person really doesn't know.

I try to include some kind of praise (such as for a particularly good description or strong character trait) so the person doesn't get too discouraged but only within those selected pages. I would then leave it up to the author to fix the rest of it before going on with the critique. That's part of the process of getting a manuscript ready for submission. No matter how wonderful the story is, editors aren't willing to slog through verbal, punctuation, and formatting debris to figure out the story.

If the person wants copy editing rather than a critique -- that's a whole different issue. A couple or so pages -- no big deal. A whole manuscript -- hmm, what do other people charge for that?

[metalikhan]

Oh, and as for timing --

When I want a critique, I approach it as though I am presenting it for submission to an editor. I've found that if I ask for a critique too soon (such as while I'm doing the first draft), I get derailed from getting the entire story down. It takes me a while to get back on track with it.

I also know how rough that first draft is. I want my own craftsmanship to be so smooth and so invisible that a critiquer would find few flaws even if the story is not a type to his or her personal liking.

BTW, it's important for both the writer and the critiquer to understand the difference between a genuine craftsmanship issue and a personal preference issue. There are so many variations in personal preferences, we could never satisfy everyone. A craftsmanship issue, however, involves adherence (or, at least, consideration) to guidelines/rules about constructing a story, formatting, the mechanics of grammar & punctuation -- many of these things are measurable against some kind of established standard.

[j2starshine]

I agree metalikhan, but I remember an agent saying we need to get the ms out there for us to receive feedback, especially to see if the story idea is working or not. Of course I'd like to have it has polished as I can otherwise I feel like I am wasting my time. For my ms I rewrote twice and did an edit before my critique group saw it, because it needed it. Right now members have my critique group are sending out there nanowrimo projects without edits on their part and their chapters are good... mine not so much, but I am learning. If a writer could find a good critique group, it is a blessing and a great learning experience on how to better write, edit, and critique. Also there are different types of critques for the different levels of progress in our writing journey. We need feedback in order to improve our craft as well as give feedback to others. Anyways, I hope this helps.

[waldenwriter]

I think that trying to critique any story that had a bunch of mechanical errors (as they call errors in spelling, grammar, etc) would be difficult, especially since I'm such a grammar queen.

I agree with you though, metalikhan, about the roughness of the rough draft. I can think of at least one chapter in my wip that I disliked after I wrote it. There are some other parts that I can tell will need revision.

Critique groups are good, but since mine only lets you read 3 pages, and we meet rather infrequently (well, it's every week now, but timing-wise the Thursday meetings don't work for me), it's been hard to get through the novel with them. I've only gotten through chapter 4 with them, and I just finished writing chapter 11 today in the manuscript. Plus summer's coming up. I'm hoping our group can set up some way to share work over the summer - like we had intended to do over winter break, except that it never happened then - or I'll never get done workshopping my novel with them. Also, the Christian critique group I was going to is in danger of falling apart unless we get someone new to lead it, since the lady who was leading it can't do it anymore due to a change in her personal schedule. I don't remember where I got to with them.

I have gotten feedback from my critique group that I'm glad I got, but since it's a secular group I worry when I get to some of the chapters I wrote more recently which are more blatantly Christian. I hope they don't think I'm too preachy.

In answer to your question, Becky, if the mistakes are really impairing your ability to read the manuscript, I think you need to let the author know and discuss it with him/her. I remember learning in some class that you don't want to do anything to disengage your reader from the story. Mechanical errors would definitely do that.

[beckyminor]

Apr 10, 2010 22:38:27 GMT -5 j2starshine said:

Um...is this the ten chapters I sent???

EEEK! Oh, no, J2S, it's totally not you! (I have a couple of critiques going at the same time, and trust me, from what I've read of your chapters, they look very clean! I'm so sorry if I made you have that sick feeling I get in my gut when I think I've made a gaffe.

I hope I didn't freak you out too much! (I had to repy to your post right away, because I didn't want you to worry...back to reading the rest of the comments in this thread now.)

[Teskas]

If someone wants you to take your valuable time to critique his material, I think he owes it to you as a matter of courtesy to get the basics right. In other words, he should use correct paragraphing, grammar, and the spell check feature of his computer.

Otherwise, it becomes a form of co-dependency. You risk being a co-conspirator in his disrespect for your time and talent, and you aren't helping him become a good writer.

If it were me, I'd return the MS with a polite explanation that the basics are flawed. You could direct him to a good writer's reference, such as Strunk & White's The Elements of Style.

As Marshal McLuhan used to say, "The medium is the message."

[j2starshine]

Thanks for clearing that up beckyminor :-) no worries

[beckyminor]

Thanks a million, everyone, for your excellent responses. I think what I may end up doing is doing the critique on the section of the novel I have, and include commentary that it would be a lot easier for me to do a good job on what he's looking for (story elements and flow) if he could go through and tidy up the formatting in future segments.

I know what you all mean about the "rough" in rough draft! I had stepped away from manuscipt for a few months, thinking it was in pretty good shape for a rough draft, but when I came back to it, wow, did I find a lot of ugly stuff to highlight for repair! I think everyone has a different level of tolerance for the shape their work is in as they spit it out, though. Me, I can't think straight if I don't have the right formatting in dialogue, paragpraphs relatively organized and such. Others, I know, write in a stream of consciousness mode, where it all just lands on the page in a pile with nary a return, commas few-and-far-between, and the like.

[metalikhan]

**laughs** Yeah, each writer has his/her own way of working, so the first/rough drafts will be as individual as they are.

When I write, I usually don't have many grammar/punctuation/format issues even in the first round. What shows up in my first draft are odd fill-in-the-blank and notes-to-self that have to be removed. Stuff like (need K/L name); (chk: normal color variation?); (place description here); (DT) for a dialog tag; or maybe a pasted note/paragraph of geography definitions, mechanical specs, or Scripture. I used to use bold face type for these so I could find them again; but I figured out how to make the highlight feature work easily and the yellow or turquoise highlights are a lot easier to spot.

And then, some of my writing happens on index cards or a steno pad if the computer is being contrary or occupied by my husband. I have a permanent indent and callous on my middle finger from pencils and pens.

In addition, I don’t always write in a linear Chapter 1, Ch 2, Ch 3... fashion. I have an outline or story arc either written or firmly in mind; but the actual writing may run more like: first scene of Ch 6, middle of Ch 2, end scene of Ch 5, entire Ch 1, entire Chapter 9, Prologue... For me, the shorter the work, the more linear my writing proceeds; the longer the story, the less linear I usually am in working on it. By the time I've got the story where it's readable enough for a critique, I've also taken it as close to submission ready as I can.

**shrug** Messy and goofy, I know, but it works for me.

[newburydave]

There's a lot of good wisdom here.

I tend to agree that if the problem is more line editing vs. plot integrity or scene structure, that the appropriate thing is to give a few examples of the typical errors with suggested corrections.

In the secular, on-line writing groups, where I've participated, that was the normal procedure. When I was a rank newbie that's what they did to me, and that's how I handled it once I got some experience.

But since it's a Christian friend, why do you have to be so formal? This isn't a formal exercise for Dr. Burt to grade. Why not pick up the phone, or open your IM client and talk it over with them?

IMHO the most important part of any Critique is to have someone else, who didn't write it, give you their assessment of what kind of response it elicited in them when they read it.

If you can't read the story because the mechanics makes the prose ambiguous, it might be better to talk to your friend and ask them about some of the ambiguities that you see. They should get the picture pretty quickly if they're a reasonably good writer.

This is all just IMHO of course. (And I never did find that box that everyone says we should think outside of. . . Oh well.)

[beckyminor]

Just an update: I was gratified to learn that some of the formatting stuff I was going crazy about was due to the transition to an .rtf that obliterated the paragraphing, so at least I know the writer typically hits "enter," and that something just went kooky.

And Dave, you're right...it should be an open discussion, which I've tried to make it as much as I can via e-mail. (I rarely call people because I have small children that make cohesive conversations pretty much impossible.) I think we're getting to a good spot with the partnership as we get a sense of each other's work habits, so hopefully I can be a blessing to this writer as I fling the red ink.

[morganlbusse]

Hey Becky! My own thoughts on the whole critiquing thing... I tell the people I give my manuscript to I would rather hear from them then from an editor.

The first time I gave my manuscript to the two people who critique for me, they came back with things that needed to be changed in my work (like reworking the first 15 chapters). I'll be honest, I cried. I had worked so hard for years on this manuscript. Then after about threes days I picked myself up by my flip flop straps (sorry, don't wear boots ) and dove back in and did the changes they said. And my manuscript became so much better.

I appreciated their honesty and would rather have that then someone say my work is good. And I appreciate that other people can see things I don't (I think that will always be the case, our eyes become so accustomed to seeing our work that we don't see the flaws).