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Post by duchessashley on Feb 19, 2009 11:53:52 GMT -5
Awesome! Thanks for the links!  |
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Post by knightofhyn on Feb 27, 2009 15:27:14 GMT -5
I'm partial to the idea of reworking the old ideas of the species. I'd commented on dwarvish fishermen and the tiny cousins to elves (probably your North Pole elves) as minors. Humans in the forests, hobbits in the plains and the tall wispy elves in the deserts, a nomadic people staying true to the old image of their worshiping the earth by removing themselves to an escetic (I believe that's the proper term) existence.
Of course, I had a friend who had played with an idea for a period of time and I can only remember part of it. A modernization of the old myths. Elves were the traditional Native Americans of our day, communing with nature and living off on their own. The difference was that they threw up the fences and established the reservations on their own. "Get out, round ear" and slammed the gate. ::Shrug.::
Sometimes tradition is good, sometimes it's boring.
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Post by mongoose on Feb 28, 2009 16:17:25 GMT -5
And sometimes stereotypes of traditions can get us into trouble. What you describe, knightofhyn, almost sounds to me like the "Noble Savage" picture of Native Americans. The whole thing of being separated from the corrupting influences of civilization, communing with nature, etc. That may be a Utopian ideal, but it's not real, from my research. People removed from civilization will usually do whatever they can to survive and make themselves comfortable, and if civilized amenities, infrastructure, technology etc. are re-introduced they will forsake their traditions to embrace it, and gladly so. It makes life easier, so why wouldn't they?
I believe there are two reasons many Native Americans today live closer to the land:
1. They are too poor, too isolated, or too un-educated to obtain the amenities and technologies that the rest of us in "civilization" are used to. This is the group I portray in my story
2. They are part of a small group that has chosen to reject modern "civilization" in favor of a corrupted, Americanized version of the culture, religion and lifestyle that they believe their ancestors had.
Of the second group, there may be an even smaller fraction who live and believe in a way that is authentically traditional, having learned from great grandparents who grew up prior to corruption from westerners, and the demands of Christian missionaries. Here's one way of distinguishing between those who are authentic in their embrace of their traditions, and those who are going after a romantic, Americanized version thereof:
In traditional tribal religion, anywhere in the world, the spirits of natural things are feared as capricious, self serving spirits. They are needed, if they are the spirits of the rain, the wind, the river, the game animals, or whatever, but they have no reason to do anything good for the people. The people, then, must do what they can to placate these evil or capricious spirits, in the hopes they'll be able to survive through another season. The good spirits do not need or demand worship or placation, as they are good by nature, and will do the good that is in their nature for the people regardless of what the people do for them.
In the Americanized version of tribal religions, however, the fear element is removed. The spirits of natural things are worshiped because they believe it's good to worship spirits of natural things. They appreciate nature. They wish to commune with their mother Earth. Anything that sounds good, and warm and fuzzy and natural fits in this corrupted, Americanized version of tribal religions. Certainly there are people who practice these forms, and some of them may even believe in what they're doing as opposed to just trying to be proud of their cultural heritage. But I have a hard time giving it any weight as compared with other, more authentic religious traditions.
What is used in your story, of course, depends on your objective. Maybe, like Tolkien, you want to show an idealistic culture/religion wherein people really do love and commune with nature, not out of fear or necessity, but out of belief that it is right, and in which they have done so for ages. Feel free. Just know that it doesn't usually happen that way in real life on this Earth, wherein all religion is based on fear, guilt, and human insufficiency as we try to reach for something higher. Only Christianity is an expression of God's love and desire for us in-spite of our fear, guilt and insufficiency as he reaches for us.
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Post by Divides the Waters on Feb 28, 2009 19:51:49 GMT -5
I write mythopoeia, so there are a number of races that intentionally resonate as "familiar" in the eyes of the reader. However, I have done what I can to give them all their own unique twist.
Mongoose, you raise an excellent point about stereotypes of traditions/religions. I think that's a danger all writers face, but we've all seen where it becomes blatantly obvious that someone hasn't done their homework.
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Post by knightofhyn on Mar 2, 2009 12:21:14 GMT -5
My bad, used the wrong word. Should have said stereotyped instead of traditional. Of course, I was thinking of the traditional treatment of the group...but probably not a good enough reason to use the term "traditional".
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Post by christian on Oct 20, 2009 16:41:44 GMT -5
Great topic!
I decided to have Dwarves and Elves in my world, as well as humans. But along with them I created another race entirely my own. In my book I did change a lot about the "Tolkien" races, but you can still tell what they really are. Elves and Dwarves.
I don't think you should worry about it, Myrthman, do what you like and some others are bound to like it too.
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Post by waldenwriter on Oct 21, 2009 2:17:16 GMT -5
Ah, the age-old question. Personally, I am a huge fan of Tolkien, and I think this shows in my own world of Walden - my Nuri Fidele (Light Faithful) are very similar to his Eldar (elves). I may rework that though.
In Walden, there are eight "peoples":
-Men - basically, humans. They are particularly susceptible to evil, and knowing this, Chaimvin (the "God" of my world) created them weaker than the elves so that they would depend on him more. He also promised them a savior to help them learn how to live by his commands. (I'm still working out how that's going to work).
-Nuri Fidele - the "Light Faithful" (literal translation) or the elves. In fact, most of the time I slip and call them elves. They were the first peoples created, and they dwelt with Chaimvin in his country until Walden itself was created. Then Chaimvin led them in boats to Walden so they could settle it. [This is somewhat too similar to the elves going from Valinor to Middle-Earth as described in The Silmarillion, so I may change this.]
-Dwelves - a race created during the Great War when a dwarf named Hirion and an elf named Estelle fell in love and married. [This is of course similar to Beren and Lúthien, but I'll let that go.] Dwelves were also born from those dwarves who found shelter with the elves when men tried to take over their lands. Dwelves have a choice when they come of age to either become a dwarf, become an elf, or stay a dwelf.
-Irvin - the "Sea-friends," or the dwarves. They settled with the sea-people when they were driven off their lands by greedy men (though some settled with the elves). They dwell in the caves above and below the ocean - for some of their offspring by the sea-people are adapted to living underwater.
-Sea-people - those peoples who inhabit the sea, such as merpeople, water sprites, naiads, etc. They were created when Chaimvin was bringing the Nuri Fidele over to Walden by boat. He spread his hands over the water, and out of the wakes of the boats sprang the first sea-people.
-Fairies - yes, I have fairies. I can't help it. My fairies, while they can do some general magic, generally specialize in one area. They live on an island out to sea called the Island of Sparkle. They are somewhat unique in that to other races they appear to be the size of humans, but with angel-size wings, but among their own kind, they are giants with larger wings, ranging from 6 1/2 feet to 13 feet in height.
-Dark Elves - These are Nuri Fidele descended from those Nuri Fidele who joined with Marek (the evil Satan-like entity) during the Great War. They live in the far eastern desert. Unlike their fairer kin, the dark elves have red hair and black skin, which the good Nuri Fidele say comes from the blood they shed (the hair) and the fires they lit (the skin - black being the color of ashes) during the Great War.
-Kannarah - The current Kannarah are the descendants of Walden peoples that the dark elves captured and forcibly mated with animals to create hybrid creatures. For instance, one such creature is Bernelle, the daughter of a Nuri Fidele and a lion. Basically, this idea combines the Biblical command not to have sex with animals with Tolkien's story about the origin of orcs from The Silmarillion (that they were elves captured by Morgoth and corrupted; Saruman even alludes to this in the first movie, saying to an Uruk-Hai, "Do you know how orcs first came into being? They were elves once").
So, I guess you can take elements from Tolkien and yet not be a total copycat. Besides, if "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery," as the saying goes, then Tolkien has had a deep impact on literature indeed.
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Post by Ilkuul on Nov 13, 2009 20:59:08 GMT -5
Many people forget that Tolkien was first and foremost a linguist, and language was the main motivation for his races. The linguistic consistency of their names and their speech is what makes them so real. Therefore I feel there's only one way Tolkien can legitimately be emulated, and that's if an equally consistent linguistic basis is provided for each of the races. Obviously not everyone can do this — but then they shouldn't try and imitate Tolkien-style names. To me, as a linguist, a mishmash of inconsistent names completely ruins a story. Forgive me for using you as an example, waldenwriter: your races sound well worked-out and credible — Walden must be a fascinating place! However 'Nuri Fidele' has a Latin sound to it ('fidele' is the Latin word 'faithfully'); and Kannarah could be Middle Eastern. I hope the other names associated with those races follow the same pattern. ('Estelle', the other Elf name you mention, has a French sound to it—but as French is descended from Latin, maybe that's OK!) But… "Dwelves"  It's a marvellous blend of "Dwarves" and "Elves", but entirely and completely English! To me, that could only work if it's represented as the nickname for that race in the Common Tongue (or whatever). Their own name for themselves could not be based on English — it might be an equivalent blend from either or both of the original languages; or it might (more likely) be quite a different name in their own tongue, with "Dwelves" being the derogatory nickname used by other races. (Maybe this is all in your book, and I'm speaking out of ignorance — in which case, great!) But do you see what I'm saying? A true Tolkien emulation would have to embody a similar linguistic consistency. HOWEVER (before you all rise up and slay me!), Tolkien has had such an enduring influence on English thought that he's succeeded in his stated aim: to create an English mythology to rival the Germanic and Scandinavian ones. From that point of view, Elves, Dwarves and Orcs have passed into English thought and writing as general mythological races, with no specific Tolkienian connection. THEREFORE, to my mind, it's quite legitimate to write about these imaginary peoples without any reference to Tolkien. He's given them to us as our common property, to use as we see fit. BUT, when we do so (unless we share Tolkien's linguistic gifts), let's stick to English names, like your "Sea-people", "Fairies" and "Dark Elves", rather than wading into the tricky waters of linguistic subcreation without a lifeline! |
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Post by waldenwriter on Nov 14, 2009 0:57:30 GMT -5
Many people forget that Tolkien was first and foremost a linguist, and language was the main motivation for his races. The linguistic consistency of their names and their speech is what makes them so real. That is very true. Tolkien, for instance, based the Rohirrim language on Old English, and (I just found this out) the Elvish languages he created on Finnish and Welsh respectively. Though the source from which I learned this didn't say which is which, my guess is that Quenya is the one based on Welsh, since it looks more similar to a Celtic language than a Scandinavian one. This would make Sindarin be based on Finnish. Forgive me for using you as an example, waldenwriter: your races sound well worked-out and credible — Walden must be a fascinating place! However 'Nuri Fidele' has a Latin sound to it ('fidele' is the Latin word 'faithfully'); and Kannarah could be Middle Eastern. I hope the other names associated with those races follow the same pattern. ('Estelle', the other Elf name you mention, has a French sound to it—but as French is descended from Latin, maybe that's OK!) The names Kannarah, Hirion, and Estelle all just came to me. I didn't really think about their linguistic origins. "Nuri Fidele" is a portmanteau of nuri, an Arabic word meaning "light," and fidele, which, as you suggested, is a form of the Latin word fidelis ("faithful"). But… "Dwelves" It's a marvellous blend of "Dwarves" and "Elves", but entirely and completely English! To me, that could only work if it's represented as the nickname for that race in the Common Tongue (or whatever). Their own name for themselves could not be based on English — it might be an equivalent blend from either or both of the original languages; or it might (more likely) be quite a different name in their own tongue, with "Dwelves" being the derogatory nickname used by other races. (Maybe this is all in your book, and I'm speaking out of ignorance — in which case, great!) Glad you liked the dwelf thing -- that race was my own invention. (It also breaks the stereotypical elf/dwarf hatred idea, present in both Tolkien and--to an extent--Paolini). I haven't decided what the dwelves call themselves yet, though that's a good point to bring up. I guess "dwelf" could be a common-tongue (or Westron/Common Speech, as Tolkien called it) term. Their name for themselves will probably have to do with Hirion and Estelle, their ancestors. (As I said, Hirion and Estelle are sort of my Beren and Lúthien). The Walden universe is still very undeveloped; I've written four short stories (one of which is lost; it was part of a series of 1-page stories I wrote to accompany pictures I cut out of magazines and things, though I went longer than 1 page on that one) and the beginning of a novel set there, plus a bunch of notes (from which my people descriptions above were taken). I've also drawn a rudimentary map of Walden, though it's not very well-drawn. So maybe I will be able to work out things like the names in time. In regards to the language consistency thing, most of my place names in Walden come from Hebrew and Greek words I found in a Bible concordance we have at home. THEREFORE, to my mind, it's quite legitimate to write about these imaginary peoples without any reference to Tolkien. He's given them to us as our common property, to use as we see fit. BUT, when we do so (unless we share Tolkien's linguistic gifts), let's stick to English names, like your "Sea-people", "Fairies" and "Dark Elves", rather than wading into the tricky waters of linguistic subcreation without a lifeline! I wish I had Tolkien's linguistic gifts! While I pick up languages easily, I am not on his level in the least. I have been playing around with language recently though with my current novel, creating portmanteau words like griskopf ("greyhead," from French and German), dehmirosso ("half-red," from [modified] French and Italian), and Wasserpianeta ("water planet," from German and Italian). I've also played around making words up using the free Manx-English dictionary software that I stumbled upon when doing language research for a manga colloboration my best friend and I were going to do. (For anyone who's interested, you can find that software here). As for my names, I didn't feel like I had to give the fairies or Dark Elves special names. The terms themselves are sufficient. The Dark Elves might have a name they call themselves though (since they don't see themselves as "dark"), but I haven't decided that for sure. "Sea-people" is actually a blanket term, as I indicated in my previous post, to refer to various species of sea-peoples, such as mermaids, water-sprites, naiads, and the like. |
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Post by brianjones on Dec 2, 2009 19:33:10 GMT -5
This is a good topic, myrthman (and welcome to The Anomaly!). If you invent a whole new set of races, I'd recommend you use some kind of overarching logic for how you're doing it. Don't just invent a tall and lean race with pointed ears and call them delves, for instance. Don't do a one-for-one replacement of Tolkien's races. Think strategically about your world. Ever heard of a Vulcan?(Heh) Jeff |
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Post by brianjones on Dec 2, 2009 19:38:29 GMT -5
I've been wondering about this issue for a while. Don't want to cheat and steal by strictly copying Tolkien's peoples but also having trouble coming up with something original. I like the way Donita K. Paul handled it but again, don't want to populate **my** world with **her** critters. Maybe the thoughts of others will jar something loose up above my neck ... I think to goes back to what is the purpose of these races? What do they add to the story? You could always go back to the myths that these races were birthed out of. Tolkien didn't take the races of Elves and such from the literal mythos. Second try other mythos rather than that of Germanic and Celtic races try Indian and other races. My plan it to put a Rocshasa in one of my stories but I had to do reseach to find out if the creature was a Dungons & Dragons creature. Turned out to be a Indian myth. From the Hindu beliefs, they were spirits who shape changed into animals and such and some of them were magicians. |
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Post by stardreamer on Dec 3, 2009 12:16:00 GMT -5
Hey all.
I do use elves, dwarves, and even mythological creatures in my writings. It's fun to sort through all the different myths and legends associated with them and see how I can tie those legends into my work in a new and fresh way. However, I never just copy. Your creatures/races/nationalities... whatever... should all have some aspect of your own personality in thier making. They may share a name with races in a different book, but they don't have to be the same.
For instance, in Tolkien's work, I feel like his elves are almost lofty... almost as if they came from the stars and long to go back there. They deal with men and other races because they must, but they will return home eventually across the undying lands and never trouble themselves with men again. Christopher Paolini's book "Eldest" almost portrays elves as part of the wild world; I could almost picture them as part animal. In fact, he even mentions that some of the elves purposfully change thier looks to represent the animals they feel closest to: strange, but effective.
The elves in my books seem to be split into sects of different kinds. For instance, some of them almost seem like Heracles-type warriors, except for they ride harts (and a tiger) instead of horses. The trackers and forest gardians are mostly slender and wily, not nesisarily tall as most elves are expected to be, but sturdy and dependable (they don't look like dwarfs). Then you have the scholars and magic workers... they have a completely different culture than the other races and at the same time they build an important foundational history for the land. (hard to explain beyond that.)
However, I'm not against creating new races. I'm no expert on it yet (and for some reason most of my original races seem to be evil) but I do think it's fun. So far I have Swarns and the Rothnagh. Mix and match. Do without or throw something in just for the fun of it. Writing is about creativity, but most people will tell you that no idea is perfectly original. Use what you have if you must, but don't be afraid to step out and do something different.
My personal opinion is that Tolkien set the standard for Fantasy writers, and most of us who read fantasy almost expect it to be something like his or C.S. Lewis' writings. Donita K. Paul through me for a loop with her unexpectedly new races, but I've grown to love them and now I wouldn't dream of excluding them from what is known as fantasy.
After all, fantasy is a genre in which everything literally goes.
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Post by stardreamer on Dec 3, 2009 12:22:17 GMT -5
[Q]'Estelle', the other Elf name you mention, has a French sound to it—but as French is descended from Latin, maybe that's OK!)[/Q]
Estelle actually means star. I know because we almost named my sister that. And I'm certainly not above looking in a name book to pick character names for a fantasy world. Usually I base my character names around the linguistic aspects of the race, world, or time (and yes, I'm a complete tolkien fan and even went so far as creating both written and spoken forms of languages for the different races in my world... maybe not to his extent... actually, strike the maybe. No way to the extent of Tolkien.) Usually I use Celtic or Scottish names. Old Brittish names or Welsh names are good too. And sometimes I even tear the names apart and figure out how to work thier litteral meanings into a meaning that fits the linguistics of my world. That's not always easy, but it's a lot of fun when I can find time.
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Post by brianjones on Dec 23, 2009 17:43:05 GMT -5
I don't have elves in my story just humans however not all are from the same world. Where my world is superheroes there were Knights who came from another world their abilities were to create magic weapons and the like. These skills and abilites are impossible in the world of Superheroes just like our world that sort of ability is mere fantasy. Yet these Knights possess these artifacts.
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Post by tyroctar on Mar 15, 2010 2:14:24 GMT -5
I have dwarves, elves, and goblins in my fantasty series. I love Tolkien, and I try my best to pay adage without copying directly. My Elves are tall, but they are not all fair skinned, blonde, forest dwellers. They are experts in the bow, but that is more of a necessity of where they live. They also do not live forever, they only live to around 300 years. They do so becuase they were the last race to sin and break God's covenant. When they did this death entered their race as well, but God blessed their obedience. The Elves tend to be the most moral of the races, but tend to be the most isolated and secluded because they fear greater corruption.
The dwarves I have are probably the most "Tolkien" of the races I have. However unlike Tolkien's dwarves, mine have an affinity for gold but not a lust for it that drives them to great ordeals. They like to build things though. Some of my dwarves are even investigating gunpowder! They like to write and sing, and actually prefer to living on cliffs and crags to living in mines and caves.
The goblins are a mixed bag. Some are vicious, nasty little boogers, who would like nothing more than eating you and your family, some are close allies with my hero and his nation. Some of the Goblins even form a Christian nation. Goblins and dwarves don't have the blood feud hatred of Tolkien's though they tend to be disagreeable. The Elves get along fine with the dwarves, often times having the dwarves build their fortresses. Goblins are also good seafarers in my novels.
As far as I'm concerned to copy Tolkien a little is fine. You could probably even copy the culture. I prefer to see at least a little artistic license, it shows some effort. But as long as I don't find elves named Elroy, Legalos, Galahdrien, or Arwenia, I wouldn't call it a copycat attempt.
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It's a marvellous blend of "Dwarves" and "Elves", but entirely and completely English! To me, that could only work if it's represented as the nickname for that race in the Common Tongue (or whatever). Their own name for themselves could not be based on English — it might be an equivalent blend from either or both of the original languages; or it might (more likely) be quite a different name in their own tongue, with "Dwelves" being the derogatory nickname used by other races. (Maybe this is all in your book, and I'm speaking out of ignorance — in which case, great!)
