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Post by jkmiles on Apr 20, 2011 16:47:33 GMT -5
I was thinking about sin the other day (  better than doing it.) and it occurred to that it really was like a virus. We are are born with it in latent form and then we inevitably activate it early in our life through pride, anger, selfishness, etc. From then on, we are hooked. We are all more or less trying to deal with this virus. But what if every sin carried a Physical manifestation. So that, I don't know, every act of pride or gluttony or lust resulted in a small progression of a physical change? Something really cool and sci-fi like paleness of skin, or vestigal spiny protuberances or whatever. The point is that an act of will that resulted in vice would register as a small or large change in physical appearance. What would society look like if that happened? Obviously I'm thinking about a story but brainstorm with me: 1) We could in some cases instantly tell something about someone's character just by their appearance. What would that do to our understanding of community? 2) Some people would undoubtedly begin to consider these "vices" as expressions of freedom and individuality so you might have a whole sub-group of society that embraced this change as aesthetically interesting etc. 3) What would people do to prevent the progression of a congenital neuro-virus that every one had? How would people adapt? Would you have monasteries where people simply tried to live lives of complete asceticism? Would you have support groups? What sins would definitely scare people the most? 4) Women (or men) could tell when some one was lusting after them or others? What would that do to marriage, dating, pornography? 5) What in the world would we call the virus itself if we lived in a largely secular society? In other words, what do I call the stuff? 6) How do you translate grace and redemption into this paradigm. As Paul says, "Oh wretched man that I am who will save me from this body of death." (Romans 8) What's the analog to Christians who strive to be virtuous but as Paul says, "Any good that is in me is from Christ alone." The cure is the holy spirit but how does that fit in. 7) Would the mutation be the same in all people so its easily recognized or should it be different pathologies? 8) What kind of affect would this "virus" have on our cultural ideas of body image? I hope you have as much fun (and as many headaches) as I'm having. |
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Post by choosybeggar on Apr 20, 2011 18:49:37 GMT -5
I happen to believe this is already at work in the real world. "Death" is root of sin, death being the works, manifestation, and paradigm of the devil. Sin and sickness are two facets of the same root, death. If you live dead, or under the influence of satan's realm, you will sin and be diseased. If you live in God's Kingdom, you won't have much of either.
So if anyone is diseased in any way, they're falling short. I could give more on this later, but I'm out of time.
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Post by jkmiles on Apr 20, 2011 19:08:42 GMT -5
Beggar,
Good point. You were thinking the same thing I was. That was my original idea. But when I think about what I want to do with my amateur fiction writing (and what God would have me do) is to write stories where spiritual concepts are manifested in big Sci-fi themes. Hence the spiritual concept of sin displayed as an actual sort of virus with stark physical manifestations. I like what Flannery O'Connor said to the deaf you shout. To the blind you draw really big pictures. That's what O'Connor was doing with her stories of spiritual corruption. Ever notice that the hypocrites in her stories always have some sort of deformity . . .
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Post by raregem on Apr 20, 2011 19:32:14 GMT -5
When I first read the title of this thread, I immediately thought of Pinocchio. lol... I'm such a kid.  That is definitely some deep thoughts there...and interesting ones as well. I think it is the start of an awesome story. However, I cannot help discuss questions b/c I am going on 4 hrs of interrupted sleep and I already have a headache. Maybe later...  |
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lexkx
Full Member
How nice to know that if you go down the hole, Dad will fish you out.
Posts: 125
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Post by lexkx on Apr 20, 2011 21:57:30 GMT -5
The judgment and self-righteousness would, perhaps, be difficult to cope with. Both in living with such conditions, and trying to write them. It would also, possibly, negate the way the Lord sometimes provides "thorns in our flesh" to help teach us grace and dependence. Could it be written? Yes. I just wonder if it would highlight one area of theology to the exclusion of others.
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Post by metalikhan on Apr 20, 2011 23:34:18 GMT -5
Fascinating concept. I'm curious about the diagnostics for it. How would you tell the difference between a sin "sufferer" and one with congenital albinism, acromegaly, cat eye syndrome, kabuki syndrome, hyperkeratosis, etc? And might there be additional implications involving offspring? Will the sins of the fathers (or mothers) be visited on the generations of their descendants? |
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Post by benthinks on Apr 21, 2011 0:39:24 GMT -5
It would also isolate people who wouldn't be able to set foot outside their house for shame. Then it would probably harden people in certain ways. If you can't hide, you're gonna own it. You might lie to yourself and others about it too. Emphasize the commonality one shares with others whom people admire and who exercised similar vices. Screwtape's people would be quite busy for a while, but they've been ever ingenious.
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Post by choosybeggar on Apr 21, 2011 0:54:08 GMT -5
Ooh-ooh! What if the self-righteous would have a deformity usually hidden but they could get exposed?
And the deformities should be quickly reversible by whatever your salvation in the story would be. Maybe. For realism's sake. Not that realism is something we're known for, heheheh.
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Post by jkmiles on Apr 21, 2011 9:52:22 GMT -5
The judgment and self-righteousness would, perhaps, be difficult to cope with. Both in living with such conditions, and trying to write them. It would also, possibly, negate the way the Lord sometimes provides "thorns in our flesh" to help teach us grace and dependence. Could it be written? Yes. I just wonder if it would highlight one area of theology to the exclusion of others. Lexkx, I see your point. I think I'm okay with only highlighting one area of theology (i.e. sin/redemption) in a story but about the judgment and self-righteousness I see your point. I suppose I thought if the virus was congenital for everyone in the city/community, there might be less judgment but that seems naive. This might be cause to "tone down" the starkness of the physical appearance. maybe some "symptoms" are only noticeable if there is a lot of indulgence and one wouldn't be able to distinguish at a glance which sins are a person's particular vices. You would only be able to note the progression of the disease if it were advanced. |
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Post by jkmiles on Apr 21, 2011 9:56:54 GMT -5
Fascinating concept. I'm curious about the diagnostics for it. How would you tell the difference between a sin "sufferer" and one with congenital albinism, acromegaly, cat eye syndrome, kabuki syndrome, hyperkeratosis, etc? And might there be additional implications involving offspring? Will the sins of the fathers (or mothers) be visited on the generations of their descendants? Metal, that's great thought. Would the pathology of the disease get mistaken for other similar ailments (where only your doctor could tell for sure) Specifically what if you had someone with severe hyperkeratosis who is always mistaken for being a letch. That's why I was thinking the progression would have to be something like protuberances coming out of the arms or some other equally unique sort of appearance. It would also have to be something that could have various stages some visible and perhaps some not. |
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Post by jkmiles on Apr 21, 2011 10:06:51 GMT -5
It would also isolate people who wouldn't be able to set foot outside their house for shame. Then it would probably harden people in certain ways. If you can't hide, you're gonna own it. You might lie to yourself and others about it too. Emphasize the commonality one shares with others whom people admire and who exercised similar vices. Screwtape's people would be quite busy for a while, but they've been ever ingenious. Ben, You make good points. (By the way, welcome to aboard!) It seems shame or pride in one's condition would both be very real societal conditions. I could imagine scientists who research the disease could come to reclassify it as merely a genetic difference rather than a social disease. This is where the three substrata of the society come in. I can imagine One group (I don't want to say class just yet but maybe) who seek to be ascetics in order to slow the progression of the disease. Maybe they live in an orbital space station in isolation. A second group goes to the other extreme. Rather than hide their symptoms they "own it" as you say. They celebrate vice in a kind of red light district or community. And then you have the mass of people in between. I'm envisioning a harsh planet with self-contained cities (like the old Dome cities of Clarke's The City and the Stars or Lester Del Rey's Police Your Planet) where the majority of the population lives. It occurs to me that the disease itself might persuade people to not have children for fear of creating a child that would naturally have the disease. So maybe the population itself is small. Maybe a fourth group would be genetically engineered and quarantined and they exist merely to engineer and maintain the technology that allows the society to exist. ? |
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Post by metalikhan on Apr 21, 2011 11:38:26 GMT -5
Fascinating concept. I'm curious about the diagnostics for it. How would you tell the difference between a sin "sufferer" and one with congenital albinism, acromegaly, cat eye syndrome, kabuki syndrome, hyperkeratosis, etc? And might there be additional implications involving offspring? Will the sins of the fathers (or mothers) be visited on the generations of their descendants? Metal, that's great thought. Would the pathology of the disease get mistaken for other similar ailments (where only your doctor could tell for sure) Specifically what if you had someone with severe hyperkeratosis who is always mistaken for being a letch. That's why I was thinking the progression would have to be something like protuberances coming out of the arms or some other equally unique sort of appearance. It would also have to be something that could have various stages some visible and perhaps some not. It would be especially problematic for those genetic anomalies that don't manifest at birth. The time bomb ones. Acromegaly, for instance, isn't immediately evident. Ankylosing spondylitis isn't visible but can trigger things that are, such as severe iritis in which the pupil (and even some of the iris) turns white with inflammation. (Personal experience with that one. ) But even those that are evident from birth could be mistaken by someone meeting the person later in life. An adult with kabuki syndrome might be mistaken for someone with the sin disease arising from, say, sloth. Or an adult born with missing fingers (can't recall the name of the defect offhand, but the hands and/or feet are shaped something like lobster claws) might be mistaken as a sin sufferer because of theft. The implications for those with the defects and genetic diseases versus manifestations of the sin disease are staggering. |
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Post by jkmiles on Apr 21, 2011 21:53:44 GMT -5
But even those that are evident from birth could be mistaken by someone meeting the person later in life. An adult with kabuki syndrome might be mistaken for someone with the sin disease arising from, say, sloth. Or an adult born with missing fingers (can't recall the name of the defect offhand, but the hands and/or feet are shaped something like lobster claws) might be mistaken as a sin sufferer because of theft. The implications for those with the defects and genetic diseases versus manifestations of the sin disease are staggering. Metalikhan, You're right they are staggering. I wonder though if there is a way to tame this complicated bag of snakes It would seem that the sin disease (I still don't have a good name for it) must have symptoms that cannot be mistaken for any other disease if the story is not to get confusing. Second given these worries, the sin disease also cannot have different manifestations based on different sins so that theft doesn't produce different symptoms than any other sin. Perhaps sme sins may speed up the transformation but we should not be able to tell which sin is creating the transformation. Here's a thought, what if most other diseases have been cured due to technology (genetics, etc) but this one disease, this one malady, the worst of all refuses to bow to medical technology. |
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Post by benthinks on Apr 23, 2011 11:39:46 GMT -5
Just a quick point since no one's brought it up. There were ancient and medieval superstitions about disease being punishment for sin. That's why Job spends his time asking for God's explanation. That's why people born with deformities were thought to be marked by the devil, etc. The social phenomenology is already rather established in some ways, even if it might need to be updated. Thing is though, everyone in your world would have this right? If everyone's sinful, then wouldn't the appearance of someone show you both what kind of thing it was and how far gone they were? I can think of at least two very interesting kinds of stories in relation to this point. 1) Someone appears who doesn't have any marked physical characteristics that point to a particular sin, and 2) someone appears who has a physical characteristic that marks a sin no one's seen before.
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Post by myrthman on Apr 24, 2011 20:53:06 GMT -5
The Bible says the wages of sin is death. In your world, the wages of sin is physical mutation. IRL, Jesus took on all sin and died. What would the Redeemer do in your story to destroy the Wormwood Virus (<-- my suggestion for a name to this critter) and save mankind? Would he become an uber-mutant for a moment, generating the antibodies necessary to create a vaccine? Would everyone accept this vaccine? I imagine the group that loves to flaunt their deformities would reject the cure. Could there be relapses after being inoculated? Lots of directions a story in this world could take!!
I like the idea of a super-advanced society that has eradicated all disease and sickness, maybe even societal ills like hunger and crime too. Then this super-virus comes up and surprises and stumps all the "experts." For the IRL parallel, we have Eden, a God-made paradise. What if your "Eden" was the whole world and the Wormwood Virus surfacing is your analog to sin entering the scene?
I know I'd read this tale! Kind of reminds of mutants in the Marvel universe: they all have the x-gene but it doesn't manifest until puberty. And then, there's no telling what form the mutation takes! Very cool!
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better than doing it.) and it occurred to that it really was like a virus. We are are born with it in latent form and then we inevitably activate it early in our life through pride, anger, selfishness, etc. From then on, we are hooked. We are all more or less trying to deal with this virus. But what if every sin carried a Physical manifestation. So that, I don't know, every act of pride or gluttony or lust resulted in a small progression of a physical change? Something really cool and sci-fi like paleness of skin, or vestigal spiny protuberances or whatever. The point is that an act of will that resulted in vice would register as a small or large change in physical appearance. What would society look like if that happened? Obviously I'm thinking about a story but brainstorm with me: 
