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Post by newburydave on Oct 1, 2011 14:08:27 GMT -5
In another matter, I've thought of changing the names just a little bit. From Marteth to Marketh. (The k comes from the word Maker, which is what Marteth is also called.) and From Opotat (meaning Opposed) to something using the word Apostasy or Apostate. Apostasy- meaning to revolt, the renunciation of a religious faith, or an abandonment of a previous loyalty Apostate- meaning one who commits apostasy Renunciation- meaning the act or practice of renouncing (had to look these all up for myself in the dictionary!) When Satan rebelled against God, he was committing apostasy, right? In a sense, at least? Thoughts? ===================== I haven't read the rest of the thread so apologies if I duplicate. Apostate is an interesting word. It comes from the Greek word Apostasion which is the Greek word for Divorce. Think for a minute of the linguistic context of this word. The Holy Spirit inspired this word to communicate not just the idea of separation or cutting off but also to include the fact of destroying a marriage; the closest love relationship that we know on Earth. As far as I am aware Lucifer's rebellion was if anything even worse than this. Lucifer was created as the highest of the ArchAngels. He was the Light Bearer (the meaning of Lucifer), the ArchAngel who had specific responsibility to bear the Lord's manifest presence, Light, in the created universe. This tells me that he was closer to God, more intimately involved with Him than any other creature outside of the Trinity itself. Shattering a one-flesh relationship is Earthshaking to be sure, but to betray a relationship such as Lucifer had with God in the beginning is probably Transcendent perfidity and betrayal beyond what we can even begin to comprehend. I believe that Judas' betrayal of Jesus was a pale shadow of this to give us a picture of what the God head experienced in the original cataclysm. RE: Talents vs. Gifts. I think there is a difference. We are all born in Spiritual Death and thus are dead in any meaningful measure of the term. We are effectively Zombies, flesh walking around, insinctively doing evil with no living living spirit in us. The only activity a dead thing can do by natural processes is rot. Most of what medicine can do is just to slow down the decay, rather like embalming and mortuary cosmetics. Now both Talents and Spiritual Gifts are abilities to do good and build something up. Since they are both good they are gifts that result from God's grace (goodness) to us. As I understand the common usage a Talent refers to an inborn ability which a person has naturally and can use for good or evil. Scripture tells us that every good gift comes down from God. It is part of his "Prevenient Grace" to give good things to both the good and the evil. (Prevenient-Latin for grace before the fact). For these reasons I believe that Talents are things that God builds into our natural genetics and spirit which we can use and control in the natural sphere according to our moral choices. Based on my own experience and studies, Spiritual Gifts are abilities to do things that are impossible to us naturally. They are specifically The Holy Spirit working through us to accomplish life giving things that only he can do. We are his conduit into this world, nothing more. We are like the electrical wires, He is the electrical power. We are the electric appliance that does the job, He is the power that makes us able to work. (Analogies all are flawed.) I guess that my conclusions are what makes me differ with how some people "theorize" and write about such things. As such I'd say that Talents are natural abilities that we are given and possess, regardless what we do with them. They operate only in the natural realm where technical abiility, organization, influence, personality, etc can accomplish things in the society of men. Spiritual Gifts are the Holy Spirit working through us to build up God's Kingdom in some practical way. We are his hands and feet as the saying goes. We do not "possess" the spiritual gift in the sense that we possess a natural ability, He in a sense "Possesses" us to do a certain task. (He, God the Holy Ghost, enters into us and empowers our efforts.) We can only use a Spiritual Gift to do God's work since the Gift is a "He" not an "IT", and He will not do anything but good. There were times when I have been deluded into trying to do wrong things, which would have been evil in their results, and I had no power to use my "Spiritual Gifts" to accomplish them. He stopped me from doing what was wrong. The result was personally painful, but He wouldn't let me unwittingly do evil with the Gifts or even the Talents that He had given me. It is wise to intentionally make a personal covenant with Him to put every area of our lives under His control, obedience to what we know of his revealed will. Now we all know that there are supernatural things that look like spiritual gifts that are used to accomplish evil ends and tear down God's kingdom. IMHO that is because there are Evil Spirits abroad in the world, Fallen Angels, who are looking for people to occupy or possess. This is according to Jesus parable about the man who was delivered from an evil spirit but remained empty, undefended by the Good Spirit of God. Seven evil spirits reentered him and he was worse in the end. When there are men and women with evil intentions then there are always Evil Spirits only too willing to empower them with supernatural abilities. More than one Saint who died and was sent back to earth to complete their Earthly calling in the flesh has testified when they looked at Earth with spiritual sight it looked like a swarm of bees, thickly covered by demonic spirits. Thank God that His sovereign will keeps us from the worst that such people can imagine, and that He limits the power of Satan and his Legions to do evil in our world. Well that's my considered opinion on the subject, take it for what it's worth. Suffice it to say that whenever I write about spiritual powers, magic, etc; I try to keep to this theological framework. If you find it useful feel free to use it, this certainly isn't original with me. Final note: RE: Dragons; This is kind of a weird aside I guess. I don't know why but I'm quite drawn to dragons as POV characters in some of my stories. I'm persuaded that they were part of God's original creation and that they were intelligent creatures who have moral free agency, just as we do. In one of my Story Universes they are Mankind's alter egos and some of my main POV characters. Since they are moral beings there are God fearing dragons and Satan serving dragons alike. I posit that the famous evil dragons of human history are in fact demonized dragons. I guess that illustrates my use of the Good vs. Evil thing. Good is done by beings motivated by God's Spirit, Evil is done by beings motivated and enslaved by Evil Fallen Angels (aka Demons). Yeah I'm simpleminded like that. Write on beloved siblings SGD dave
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Post by newburydave on Oct 1, 2011 14:17:02 GMT -5
The series villainess is Inferna, a fallen Ascendant who is chained beneath five worlds, and working through various people, orchestrating the destruction of those five worlds so she can break free. She's not Satan, she's just nearly as bad.
;D Okay, here's a really weird aside. I was reading this thread rapidly and when I got to this last sentence I thought it said; "...Inferma, a fallen Accountant..."; now that my brothers and sisters would be a truly frightening evil Daemon. A lot of good discussion in this thread. IMHO we're looking at rather important stuff for Christian novelists to consider. Write on beloved Siblings SGD dave
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Post by Kessie on Oct 1, 2011 15:43:43 GMT -5
This is kind of a weird aside I guess. I don't know why but I'm quite drawn to dragons as POV characters in some of my stories. I'm persuaded that they were part of God's original creation and that they were intelligent creatures who have moral free agency, just as we do.
In one of my Story Universes they are Mankind's alter egos and some of my main POV characters. Since they are moral beings there are God fearing dragons and Satan serving dragons alike. I posit that the famous evil dragons of human history are in fact demonized dragons. I've read books where dragons were necessary, because they were both intelligent and stronger than man, and man needed them around to keep him in his place. (I think it was one of Robin Hobb's trilogies.) That idea always amused me. I've always been partial to dragons as characters, but it's hard to find a really good book with them. The best one I've found so far has been the Temeraire series by Naomi Novik. It's basically alternate history--the Napoleonic Wars if England and France had dragons as an air force. It's a terrific read (and I think the seventh book is coming out soon). Temeraire is waaaay too smart for his own good. "Why must we serve the Crown if the Crown has never done anything for me?" Laurence (his human companion/pilot): "Don't say things like that or next you'll be dumping tea in the harbor." I was reading this thread rapidly and when I got to this last sentence I thought it said; "...Inferma, a fallen Accountant..."; now that my brothers and sisters would be a truly frightening evil Daemon. LOLOLOL!!
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Post by newburydave on Oct 1, 2011 16:23:08 GMT -5
I did a search on all the mythological/folk historical/racial memory and other sources and blended the result with what I found in the "dragons as dinosaurs" category.
Interesting study.
SGD dave
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Post by choosybeggar on Oct 1, 2011 16:34:34 GMT -5
HaHA! Mr. Dave got in on this conversation...(again, I think?) I generally agree with you, what you were saying on the good vs. evil on what we do, period. Basically what I was saying earlier, just trying to be too specific. Yeah. Funny how I tend to agree with your opinions... I wonder. On the dragons, however. Something has come to my attention since we last talked on this subject. When God breathed the breath of life in Genesis, the original word has, as usual, several possible exact meanings in translation. But not many. One of those is "give up," as in He gave up the breath of life in giving it to Adam. In other words, humans are unique in that sense. What that sense is, is up to your own opinions, but I think it means only man has free will. Other races, if they exist or existed, are like animals the world 'round. Intelligent, yes. Free will? No. You've said dragons're like angels. I agree, at least in that they could be something like that. Been writing a book with that in it. Great fun. Angels are just...different. Different purpose, which you've also said. So if you're saying dragons are like "another race, like elves and dwarfs," I disagree. If you're saying they are smart and wise, but on par with angels in purpose and ability to choose, then I agree. Or.....are you saying both?
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Post by Kessie on Oct 1, 2011 16:55:47 GMT -5
When God breathed the breath of life in Genesis, the original word has, as usual, several possible exact meanings in translation. But not many. One of those is "give up," as in He gave up the breath of life in giving it to Adam. In other words, humans are unique in that sense. What that sense is, is up to your own opinions, but I think it means only man has free will. Other races, if they exist or existed, are like animals the world 'round. Intelligent, yes. Free will? No. Uh, we're talking about dragons in our imaginations. Of course there's no talking, six-limbed fire-breathing lizards in our world. Real dragons are probably based on myths about dinosaurs and other extinct creatures anyway. IMAGINARY dragons, on the other hand, can talk, breathe fire, live for thousands of years, and hoard gold. Just imagine that God made them sentient the way Aslan gave the gift of speech to the Narnians. :-) And what about griffins? I'm hard-pressed to find ANY fantasy books with griffins in them aside from Mercedes Lackey. Besides, they look so awesome. fav.me/d2n2ch1
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Post by yoda47 on Oct 1, 2011 17:41:05 GMT -5
I believe the Peirs Anthony books (The Xanth series) has a griffon or two... (and a dragon or two as well...)
As for dragons as characters, the Pern series by Anne McCaffery has them. Not as POV characters, but they're sentient. (Note, her writing is some of the best I've seen anywhere, but it's NOT Christian. Most of them are okay, but the later ones get into some um, let's say "touchy" subjects...)
Also, the Inheritance Cycle by Christopher Panoli has a dragon, and she gets a POV in the latest book, "Brisinger".
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Post by Kessie on Oct 1, 2011 18:47:14 GMT -5
I've tried Pern a bit, and this was my impression. Pern: We have dragons who time-travel, teleport, sing, and fight Thread. What are 80% of each book actually about? POLITICS.
Dragon: I'm awesome! But I'm in the background.
Humans: POLITICS AND SEX! *gratuitous amounts of both happen*
I haven't tried Piers Anthony (thanks for the recommendation!) but the first Inheritance book was so poorly written, my sister and I alternately gagged and laughed our way through it. I couldn't bring myself to read another.
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Post by yoda47 on Oct 1, 2011 19:33:23 GMT -5
Well, it was his first book. The others get progressively better.
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Post by Kessie on Oct 1, 2011 22:48:37 GMT -5
Sorry, Yoda, I didn't mean to sound so harsh. I get excited about all this, so I come on strong and it comes across wrong in text.
Going way, way back to the original topic of this thread, has anybody has read the Wheel of Time books by Robert Jordan? I read one book (I think it was book 2), looked at the length of the rest of the series and the thickness of the books, and gave up.
But in Wheel of Time, magic comes from the True Source, but there's male and female versions. The male version is tainted, so if a man uses magic, eventually he'll lose his mind because the male True Source is tainted.
This confused me a bit, because I could never figure out where he was coming from with that. Anybody read enough of his books to pin down the worldview he was trying to present (if any)?
And for just fun magic, my favorite is the second Enchanted Forest book by Patricia C. Wrede, where the king of the enchanted forest can see magic just floating around in strings, like cobwebs. And he works magic by grabbing those strings and pulling them, or knotting them, or doing all the fun things you do with string.
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Post by yoda47 on Oct 2, 2011 11:48:13 GMT -5
I've read the first three books in the wheel of time series and gave up... It reminded me a lot of Dragon Ball Z, in that, you could take the whole 12 books and compress it into a trilogy and you wouldn't be missing much. I might finish reading them after Brandon Sanderson finishes off the series... perhaps...
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Post by newburydave on Oct 3, 2011 12:28:55 GMT -5
Choosyb...;
Of course we agree a lot; we both went to different schools together,... at different times, too.
(That last is assuming that your Avatar pic is recent, I've not been THERE for a lot of years, except with our grandkids. Another one in process by the way; please pray, my daughter is doing the older (37 yr old) mother worrying about the baby thing. She has a history of difficult pregnancies and three previous c-sections.)
Write on Bro
SGD dave
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Post by newburydave on Oct 3, 2011 20:04:26 GMT -5
Chooseyb and Kessie;
Your comments about dragons got me thinking about the interraction between one of my dragon/human POV pairs in a short story that I've written that's been simmering on the back burner for a few years.
I think I'll write out the dialog I'm going to insert and post it.
SGD dave
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rjj7
Full Member
Today I'm a drake
Posts: 202
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Post by rjj7 on Oct 4, 2011 19:57:10 GMT -5
But in Wheel of Time, magic comes from the True Source, but there's male and female versions. The male version is tainted, so if a man uses magic, eventually he'll lose his mind because the male True Source is tainted. This confused me a bit, because I could never figure out where he was coming from with that. Anybody read enough of his books to pin down the worldview he was trying to present (if any)? He wasn't trying to present any worldview. In short, when the Dark One was about to escape through the bore in his prison, Lews Therin Telamon and his hundred companions came and used their magic to reseal it. The 'backlash' or 'counterstrike' from the Dark One tainted the male half of the power. It's an ancient event that's used as a plot device, not a worldview commentary. Might help if you read the books in the right order. I gave up on the series after six books because every female is a whiny, bossy, arrogant, nagging, sexist moron who expresses nothing but contempt for men. Also, Robert Jordon started coming across as condoning things like polygamy, public nudity, and premarital sex.
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Post by myrthman on Oct 5, 2011 18:30:27 GMT -5
Is it too late to chime in here??
On Battlesong (my fantasy world), there are two sources of power (magic). Lumen (“God”) sang the Naerie (“angels”) and trumpeted all inanimate matter into existence. Special songs therefore become the source of superhuman abilities that honor Lumen; some were written by Lumen himself and left for his followers to discover; others were written by his followers as they experienced him and his world. There are songs that anyone can sing and there are more powerful songs reserved for those of nobler character and, perhaps, divine choosing. A handful of artifacts that retain their power through history were created using one or more of the more powerful songs.
The other source of power in the world is the severed right hand of the Naerie whose idea it was to create dragons (Eldor; he was later shamed and exiled from Lumen’s presence but not because of the dragons). The Fist of Eldor is an artifact that bestows Creative power for a limited time but with a terrible cost to the user. Those that have used it through history have created armies of new, grotesque beings to try to conquer the word. They are then cursed, becoming some insane, twisted monster with little thought except survival of self and destruction of others. Even good and noble characters who only touch the Fist experience a degree of cursing; one MC loses his arm below the elbow to stop the Fist’s corruption of his body.
Battlesong’s dragons can breathe fire but only after their first flight into the High Sky (mesosphere or higher) where the pressure is such that membranes over their fire lungs rupture from the inside. They “recharge” when their wings move up and down and filtered, pure oxygen is taken into their fire lungs (think bellows in a blacksmith’s forge). Because of incidents just before Eldor’s exile, the dragons have only brute intelligence and instincts. Because of the necessity of the fire lungs to be opened from the inside, there are wingless dragons on Battlesong who cannot breathe fire (their wings were removed as a means of control before their first High Sky flight) and have been domesticated as mounts and beasts of burden.
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