|
Commas
Apr 19, 2012 12:49:59 GMT -5
Post by j2starshine on Apr 19, 2012 12:49:59 GMT -5
Hey guys, recently my brain has forgotten the proper usage of the comma! I thought I had a good handle on this, but then I hear someone say this or don't do that now... funny thing, fantasy-faction had an article on the very topic. It's got some external links that might prove helpful. anyways just thought I'd pass it on. fantasy-faction.com/2012/commas-with-amy
|
|
|
Commas
Apr 19, 2012 12:58:20 GMT -5
Post by newburydave on Apr 19, 2012 12:58:20 GMT -5
JStar; I found "English Grammar for Dummies" to be a very helpful reference. (I was absent the day we did grammar and punctuation and never did get the hang of it in school). "EGfD" is easy to find things in, and as far as I'm concerned it's authoritative, at least for a dummy like me. Write on Sis SGD dave
|
|
|
Commas
Apr 19, 2012 19:18:04 GMT -5
Post by Kessie on Apr 19, 2012 19:18:04 GMT -5
The best way to find where commas should go is to read stuff aloud.
I always think of that story about the teacher who wrote on the blackboard, "The principal, said the teacher, is not very smart."
The principal walked in, saw the blackboard, and erased both commas. "The principal said the teacher is not very smart."
|
|
|
Commas
Apr 19, 2012 20:37:50 GMT -5
Post by Divides the Waters on Apr 19, 2012 20:37:50 GMT -5
When you pause dramatically, pause dramatically. Never fear the comma; despite modern morons trying to eliminate it, it has a very specific purpose, and that is clarity. Take, for example, this sentence from Lewis: "When they were finished eating the children...." Later corrected: "When they were finished eating, the children...." Also, learn the real advantage of the serial comma. A decent article on the subject can be found here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma
|
|
|
Commas
Apr 19, 2012 21:34:17 GMT -5
Post by j2starshine on Apr 19, 2012 21:34:17 GMT -5
wow, wikipedia has everything! Almost. Ok, I'm going back to using the serial comma...in my last critique group I was told that it wasn't necessary, but be consistent whatever you choose, but the examples they posted made it seem necessary.
Thanks guys for the recommendations and link.
|
|
|
Commas
Apr 20, 2012 8:46:10 GMT -5
Post by yoda47 on Apr 20, 2012 8:46:10 GMT -5
|
|
|
Commas
Apr 24, 2012 15:43:46 GMT -5
Post by j2starshine on Apr 24, 2012 15:43:46 GMT -5
oh my... I think I better start including that pesky comma
|
|
|
Commas
Apr 26, 2012 18:21:49 GMT -5
Post by firestorm78583 on Apr 26, 2012 18:21:49 GMT -5
Punctuation, especially commas, has been my Achillies heel. All the more reason my writing philosophy has been...
Get it out of your head, then go back and make it look pretty.
I still take great delight in studying the funny side of the English language (example: Why do we park in a driveway and drive on a parkway?). Years ago there was a series of books called the Intrepid Linguists Library. The authors included William Safire and Richard Lederer. One of the books in the the series was called Metapunctuation. Metapunctuation stated that the punctuation we currently use is inefficient. We cannot convey feeling without a lot of he saids and she saids. The book's author created a wealth of new punctuation for just that purpose. The book is sort of the opposite of Victor Borge's Phonetic Punctuation routine, where Mr. Borge vocalized the punctuation, while reading a passage from a book.
Both are good for a laugh.
Will
|
|
|
Commas
May 2, 2012 17:07:37 GMT -5
Post by mldonovan on May 2, 2012 17:07:37 GMT -5
Excellent information ya'll! Thanks!!! In college, use of commas was solely dependent on what the Professor insisted...nothing else. But in writing, I'm scared it may be what the publisher wants!!! I agree with Kessie, read it out loud and if you feel the need to pause, put a comma. Lynn
|
|
|
Commas
May 3, 2012 22:08:15 GMT -5
Post by firestorm78583 on May 3, 2012 22:08:15 GMT -5
Glad we could help.
I just found a t-shirt online that said
Let's eat grandma. Let's eat, grandma Punctuation saves lives.
|
|
|
Commas
May 5, 2012 8:42:37 GMT -5
Post by newburydave on May 5, 2012 8:42:37 GMT -5
Ya know, the punctuation rules are supposed to be an aid to clarity in communication. It strikes me that slavish obedience to this convention or that convention can be the same kind of blind Pharisaic foolishness that Jesus rebuked the temple crowd for.
If there really were only one set of standards, a punctuation cannon like the Bible, it would be different; but there are multiple schools of thought depending on the venue for which you are writing. I was taught one convention in school, a different convention in business (by a former copyeditor for one of the primo business magazines), and other conventions are championed by the different "last word" guides to English grammar and punctuation.
The copyeditor who taught the seminar on business grammar and punctuation was also a language historian. He had very little good to say about English and the origins of it's standardized pronunciation, word choices and grammatical rules. It seems that some anonymous person published the first Standardized English Grammar back around the middle of the 18th century for the university crowd.
The consensus opinion of grammatical historians was that this book was nothing but a bald attempt to do nothing more than distinguish the "educated elite" from the common herd by their quite arbitrary language and grammatical usages. It was a revolt by the elites against the tyranny of the very fluid common usages "of the unwashed masses of barely literate common men." (read Methodists, Baptists and Quakers)
Most modern grammarians admit that usages change from generation to generation and most attempt to track the current changes. It reminds me of the way that Biblical translators try to track the common language of the population in their modern language translations.
=============
Bottom line: We need consistent conventions but it's not about rule keeping, it's about effective communication to your reader/hearer. The right convention makes your prose transparent to your target readers, nothing more, nothing less.
Practical corollary: Be flexible enough to use the conventions of the group or publisher to whom you are sending your writing.
Secondary consideration: If you think your chosen publisher is behind the times, or not in sync with your target audience, find a different publisher who is. Your goal is to sell books, not please a publisher's editor.
Radical ideas done cheaply.
Write on beloved Siblings.
SGD dave
|
|
|
Post by Kristen on May 11, 2012 16:55:40 GMT -5
Amen and amen, Brother Dave.
|
|
|
Commas
May 16, 2012 8:04:40 GMT -5
Post by morganlbusse on May 16, 2012 8:04:40 GMT -5
Most publishers use the Chicago Manual of Style for the rules on grammar. So if you have a question on commas (and write fiction), you can look it up there. I use their site all the time www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/home.html
|
|
|
Commas
May 18, 2012 7:41:06 GMT -5
Post by justinjoesherman on May 18, 2012 7:41:06 GMT -5
I can't add much to what has already been said, but I like the following about punctuation: An English professor wrote the words, “Woman without her man is nothing” on the blackboard and directed his students to punctuate it correctly. The men wrote: “Woman, without her man, is nothing.” The women wrote: “Woman: Without her, man is nothing.” When I read and come across passages where I feel like the punctuation doesn't seem "right", it takes me out of the story to try to interpret what the writer's intentions were. Anything that takes the reader "out of the story flow" is not good. If I encounter this too much, I am very apt to put the book down and never pick it up again. I'm not inclined to buy another book from that particular writer, either. If I'm sounding like a "punctuation nazi", sorry about that! I just love great books, and I don't like having to interpret what the writer was trying to say. To me, clarity is key.
|
|
|
Commas
May 18, 2012 12:31:24 GMT -5
Post by newburydave on May 18, 2012 12:31:24 GMT -5
Justin; I know what you mean. I dumped an ebook I bought from Amazon because I couldn't understand the grammar (the plot line and action was lame too, but I dumped it for the grammar). I wish I'd known you can return ebooks if you don't like them for up to seven days. The good news is that I bought some follow on works by this author unawares and they were some of the better plausible-future space opera/war stories I've read. So the author did get a clue and when his craft improved his creativity and ideas shone. Write on Bro SGD dave
|
|