brianc
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Post by brianc on May 31, 2012 12:47:44 GMT -5
I'm curious what people's view is of the book Love Wins by Rob Bell. It is, in a way, a form of Universalism. However, I have had some similar thoughts on some of Bells beliefs in the book. But personally, I don't think we're told enough in the Bible to truly create a solid doctrine about hell and life hereafter when Jesus returns. I think it's smart to keep an open mind and to research things for ourselves. I think it's smart to stay in the here and now, as well, with a focus on seeking God constantly and dying to self each day through service to others. Like Paul said, run the race so as to win the prize. To bet on a doctrine that may or may not be true due to lack of scriptural proof would be absurd, though, of course.
Either way, it's an interesting discussion. I like that Bell brought out some important things about understanding old Hebrew ideology and how some meaning is lost in translation with certain words.
Anyone care to chime in?
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Post by yoda47 on May 31, 2012 13:01:56 GMT -5
This pretty much sums up my opinion on that book: thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2011/03/14/rob-bell-love-wins-review/I could go on about this kind of subject for hours, but I want to be careful to not argue and disparage, but to correct, uphold, and encourage (Titus 1:9, among others). I think part of the problem with ideas like this is that the Church has done a really crappy job of teaching doctrine in recent years. What's more important is not what we, or others think about heaven and hell, but what God tells us. As the author of the above article says, to fully dispute Bell's belive, he would have to go over "traditional" christian doctrine. (P.S. Please repost your reply from the sandbox here. I'd love to continue this discustion, and I'd reply/counter/agree with several of the thoughts you had in reply here, but it wouldn't make sense to anyone else reading this without what I'm replying back to...) |
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Post by Kessie on May 31, 2012 13:09:32 GMT -5
I think it'd be wise to "Search the scriptures to see if these things be true." Jesus goes on for a whole chapter in Matthew about Hell, how bad it is, who goes there, and how to avoid it. That's pretty decisive for me.
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brianc
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Post by brianc on May 31, 2012 14:50:05 GMT -5
This pretty much sums up my opinion on that book: thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2011/03/14/rob-bell-love-wins-review/I could go on about this kind of subject for hours, but I want to be careful to not argue and disparage, but to correct, uphold, and encourage (Titus 1:9, among others). I think part of the problem with ideas like this is that the Church has done a really crappy job of teaching doctrine in recent years. What's more important is not what we, or others think about heaven and hell, but what God tells us. As the author of the above article says, to fully dispute Bell's belive, he would have to go over "traditional" christian doctrine. Yoda47 NOTE: I don't believe the author of the article is necessarily correct, nor do I believe Bell is correct. I have a method of research more like a research scientist who wants more facts to prove something rather than theories. Thus, I keep an open mind on the subject. You say that we should believe what God tells us, not what we think on the matter...but unfortunately, God doesn't tell us much on this subject, and is not clear about it by any means. That's the problem. That's why I keep an open mind about the subject and create no clear doctrine for myself about it. There are many misconceptions in the article you posted. The guy twists some of what Bell said in order to make some of his arguments, then turns right around and gives Bell's actual belief on that subject which is opposite of what he just said it was. The guy, I think, is just a little more militant about debating Bell than he lets on in the article. Neither he nor Bell is correct on this subject. The Bible itself is not clear on this subject, and to create a doctrine out of hell and the afterlife would be absurd, because there isn't enough data to go off of. Any research scientist will tell you that if they know the Bible well and they're objective. The smartest thing to do is to live in the here and now, seeking God first and foremost, and seeking to die to self by giving to others. We should, as Paul says, run the race to win the prize...give it all we have. That's the smart thing to do. As for beliefs we don't have enough information on to determine, best to keep an open mind. Could God condemn people forever in hell? Sure. Could He have a clever plan to humble them so they'll repent and be saved? Sure. Do we know if either of those possibilities are 100% true? Nope, and we won't till the end, so why bother making a big fuss out of it? Best to just love people now. We can bring the Kingdom of God to earth right now in our own little way through love, and Jesus can bring it in full when He returns, and that's about all we can truly do and hope for. - Brian |
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brianc
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Post by brianc on May 31, 2012 14:55:41 GMT -5
I think it'd be wise to "Search the scriptures to see if these things be true." Jesus goes on for a whole chapter in Matthew about Hell, how bad it is, who goes there, and how to avoid it. That's pretty decisive for me. To which chapter of Matthew are you referring? If you believe it proves it conclusively, I'd like to hear your side of that argument. For me, I believe hell exists. What I don't know is if people go there forever, or if it is used as a tool for humbling people with its horrors to a point where they'll be repentant and ask for salvation. I've heard many stories of out of body experiences where people have died and been in the spiritual realm and met Jesus who talked them in to searching Him out. They were resuscitated by a physician (came back to life) and usually find Jesus shortly after that. Is it different in their case because Jesus knows they aren't going to die permanently? Is Jesus just trying to spare them having to endure hell a little while or forever? No way to know, really. But it makes sense to me that a loving father would want his children to be humbled through discipline so they'd repent and accept him rather than condemning them to eternal horrors. I know for me, I don't care what my child does, I will always use discipline to try to teach him the error of his ways so that he will accept my way. I would never want him to suffer for eternity no matter what he'd done. Temporarily, sure. Eternally, no. I get the feeling God's more clever than we think He is and He has a way to save everyone, but I can't prove that so I don't believe it conclusively. It's just one of those sneaking suspicions. That's all. - Brian |
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Post by yoda47 on May 31, 2012 18:20:16 GMT -5
NOTE: I don't believe the author of the article is necessarily correct, nor do I believe Bell is correct. I have a method of research more like a research scientist who wants more facts to prove something rather than theories. Thus, I keep an open mind on the subject. You say that we should believe what God tells us, not what we think on the matter...but unfortunately, God doesn't tell us much on this subject, and is not clear about it by any means. That's the problem. That's why I keep an open mind about the subject and create no clear doctrine for myself about it. There are many misconceptions in the article you posted. The guy twists some of what Bell said in order to make some of his arguments, then turns right around and gives Bell's actual belief on that subject which is opposite of what he just said it was. The guy, I think, is just a little more militant about debating Bell than he lets on in the article. Neither he nor Bell is correct on this subject. The Bible itself is not clear on this subject, and to create a doctrine out of hell and the afterlife would be absurd, because there isn't enough data to go off of. Any research scientist will tell you that if they know the Bible well and they're objective. The smartest thing to do is to live in the here and now, seeking God first and foremost, and seeking to die to self by giving to others. We should, as Paul says, run the race to win the prize...give it all we have. That's the smart thing to do. As for beliefs we don't have enough information on to determine, best to keep an open mind. Could God condemn people forever in hell? Sure. Could He have a clever plan to humble them so they'll repent and be saved? Sure. Do we know if either of those possibilities are 100% true? Nope, and we won't till the end, so why bother making a big fuss out of it? Best to just love people now. We can bring the Kingdom of God to earth right now in our own little way through love, and Jesus can bring it in full when He returns, and that's about all we can truly do and hope for. - Brian It's good to be open-minded (Acts 17:11 These Jews a were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they eagerly received the message, examining the scriptures carefully every day to see if these things were so.)--to a point. We shouldn't take anything on face value, but be like the Bereans and do our research. We have to be careful though to draw our counclustions not on our own feelings, or what others say, but what God tells us in his word. On "creating doctrine": "doctrine" means "teachings" It is correct not to make up our own teachings (that's heresy), but what God teaches us in the bible, and what Christ taught the disciples are the doctrines of God. If we cannont stand firm in the teachings of the revealed word of God, than we might as well belive nothing; moving back and forth between the teachings of different pastors, never being able to tell what God's truth is. (Ephesians 4:14) Precisley, we aren't told much about heaven and hell, and that's what Bell is doing: creating a doctrine out of it. We are told some things about it, though, and what Bell says contridicts them. (See all the verse references in the linked article. True, they don't tell us EXACTLY what heaven and hell will be like, but neither do they support Bell's case.) So, we don't know everything about heaven or hell, but we do have some information, and as we search the scripture, we need to be careful that our conclustions match the text. Are we taking our pre-concived notions of what we think is fair and twisting the Bible to fit them? Are we talking a preachers word and twisting the Bible to fit it? Are we taking a subject that the Bible is silent on and craming our ideas in there, even though the text does not support it, and saying "the Bible doesn't directly say I'm wrong, so therefore I must be right"? Obviously, these are questions that we have to ponder every time we study a doctrine, and like the Bereans, search the scriptures daily. And I wouldn't say that the reviewer is twisting words, but rather quoting him, then taking that belief to it's logical conclusion to illistrate how it goes against the Bible. On living in the moment: Precisly! "Do not worry about tommorow, for tommorow has enough trouble of it's own" (somwhere in Matthew...) It's not at all productive to ARGUE about the future, but it is helpful to DISCUSS things like this, as long as the goal is to uplift and encourage each other. The danger in teachings that don't agree with the Bible are that they can lead people to false conclusions about the charcater of God. We are to love each other, but we are to love each other in Christ. |
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Post by yoda47 on May 31, 2012 18:48:50 GMT -5
Matthew 5:21-30 is the section where Jesus tells us about hell. (its in the middle of the Sermon on the mount.) Also, more info from Jesus in the book of Matthew in: 10:28 (the whole section from 10:16-32 has to do with false teachers) 18:9 (has a brief mention: apparently you really don't want to go there...) We also learn more about hell from Jesus in Luke 16:19-31 Prety much the whole of 2 Peter is relevent to the disscussion at hand. (Not much info, but a lot about how to recognize false teachings.) Too numerous to list here, but do a search for "judgment" in the bible, and it turns up all sorts of good info. (Don't have an electronic Bible that's easy to search? Go here: http://www.bible.org) Or, if you want the whole of the docrine of heaven and hell summped up in a few nutshells (the text summerizes the doctrine, the verses are where the doctine is derived from): www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc31.htmlwww.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc32.html |
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Post by Kessie on May 31, 2012 19:24:21 GMT -5
I think it'd be wise to "Search the scriptures to see if these things be true." Jesus goes on for a whole chapter in Matthew about Hell, how bad it is, who goes there, and how to avoid it. That's pretty decisive for me. To which chapter of Matthew are you referring? If you believe it proves it conclusively, I'd like to hear your side of that argument. - Brian I'm curious. What scripture references that prove that God lets people out of Hell/Purgatory after a while? |
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brianc
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Post by brianc on Jun 1, 2012 6:52:18 GMT -5
To which chapter of Matthew are you referring? If you believe it proves it conclusively, I'd like to hear your side of that argument. - Brian I'm curious. What scripture references that prove that God lets people out of Hell/Purgatory after a while? 1 Peter 3:18-20 18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit, 19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water. It's important to understand that this passage is unclear. We don't know if these are the spirits of men or angels, nor do we know if Jesus saves them from hell or not. One cannot make doctrine from this verse, but they can attempt to interpret it for a couple of different possibilities. Personally, for Jesus to go down to them (assuming they're human spirits) after He died on the cross and make proclamation to them without offering to save them sounds like rubbing it in their faces, and that doesn't seem like God's character. My guess is that He made proclamation to them that He died for their sins and they can now accept His sacrifice and be saved. Again, there's no way to prove this, but it makes more sense than the former possibility which seems just downright cruel. If they're the spirits of angels, I could possibly understand Jesus going down to them and saying, "I've just defeated the evil you started long ago." That's a possibility. No one really knows for certain what this verse is talking about, though. So, like I said, one cannot make doctrine out of it. - Brian |
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brianc
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Post by brianc on Jun 1, 2012 7:11:50 GMT -5
Matthew 5:21-30 is the section where Jesus tells us about hell. (its in the middle of the Sermon on the mount.) It's important to note that the verse you just gave me is actually more in support of Rob Bell's theory on hell than the author of that article you posted. Matthew 5:25-26 25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny. In other words, someone is in prison (hell), either in this life or in the next, and will not get out till they've "paid the last penny". So, the question is, is this figurative teaching 100% accurate and people can get out? Or did Jesus just slip up and He should have said, "You will never get out."? I don't assume He slipped up, ever, but I also don't pretend to know if His figurative comparison is meant to be 100% like hell either. So I keep an open mind about it. Understand that I've studied the Bible heavily for the past 16 years. I've had a lot more time to do so than most people. I know scripture really well (but I am awful at remembering scripture numbers for some reason). I use Biblegateway and a Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon online. I have spent time learning the old customs of the Hebrews so I know the sayings they used in their time which we don't understand today. For instance, when Jesus says, "No man knows the day but the Father in Heaven," He is indicating the Feast of Trumpets. Why? Because Feast of Trumpets is the only feast that starts when the new moon rises. So, no one was sure when it would start. Therefore, when someone would ask, "When will Feast of Trumpets start?" the answer in their time was, "No man knows the day but the Father in heaven." When Jesus talks about coming as a thief in the night, He's talking about the high priest, which is Him, coming to set the robes of the sleeping priests on fire as a warning. The priests in those days would walk the temple at night, watching out over the land for approaching armies. The high priest would come around from time to time to check on them. If he found one asleep, he'd light their robes on fire and they'd wake up and throw them off, running around the temple nearly naked. That was to remind them never to fall asleep again. This is the saying Jesus used to say He would return like a thief in the night to the world, who is asleep. But Paul uses that terminology, then right afterward says you are not children of the night so that day would take you by surprise, but rather you are children of the light and you will know the times and the seasons when He will return. So, which doctrine is correct: will we know when Jesus is returning or won't we? If we don't know their sayings, we think Jesus is saying no one knows. If we know their sayings, though, we see that Jesus is saying it'll happen on Feast of Trumpets, and Paul is saying we will know when He's returning (and that it will be on the last trumpet blown on feast of trumpets...which is the 100th trumpet blow at the end of the day). Having said that, my point is that many people think they know the Bible well, but completely misinterpret it. I can't count the number of different interpretations I've heard on heaven and hell and on prophecy and all sorts of things. Which is exactly why I keep an open mind. Typically, the way I come to my conclusions is by referencing what I know about the Bible as a whole, and doing a study on what it says on a specific subject. I've done this with heaven and hell. Afterward, I still could not discern exactly what hell was nor how long it lasts. The Bible simply is not clear on it. I have a few theories, one of which is the traditional theory. One is that people burn up instant. And one is that hell is punishment for everyone whose unsaved until they are humbled to a state where they will become repentant and ask Jesus to save them. I think the last possibility is more likely due to what I read in the Bible and what I know of God's character as a loving father. The Old Testament says His anger very quickly dies out, but His love is forever. So, would God make people suffer for eternity under His wrath? Or would He have a little different plan so that His wrath is quickly extinguished and His love can go on forever? The only solid argument against a temporary hell is a conclusive argument that hell definitely is eternal for people and people will go there and experience it consciously for eternity. Nowhere in the Bible do we read that specifically. And I don't think God wanted us to know. I think He wanted to give us just enough information so that we'd know that ending up in hell, whether for a few minutes or a few millennia or forever, would be the most awful thing ever, and so we need to humbly repent and ask for His forgiveness. That is the most logical approach to hell, in my opinion. Running the race to win the prize. That's the smartest thing to do and probably what God was promoting. As for the specifics of hell, unless you can prove the traditional belief, there is no solid foundation for it. It's that simple. Also, just wanted to add that I'm not arguing with anyone. This is just a discussion. The hope of any discussion like this is that either someone will be able to conclusively prove something biblically, or that we'll all at least come to a conclusion that satisfies everyone's curiosity on the subject. If there's information I haven't come across or considered that would prove hell is eternal and people go there without burning up instantly, I want to know about it, but I can't find anything solid about it in the Bible. So, hope there's no spirit of contention here. I'm just sharing information and theories, that's all. |
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brianc
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Post by brianc on Jun 1, 2012 7:35:34 GMT -5
18:9 (has a brief mention: apparently you really don't want to go there...) It's important to understand that in this verse (and many), hell fire is translated from the word Gehenna, which simply refers to the trash heap southwest of Jerusalem. It was always burning, day and night. Wild animals would eat spoiled food from the outer edges of the pile where it wasn't burning, creating the south of "gnashing of teeth" as well as animals crying out (weeping) when they would fight for food. So, is Jesus talking about this literal trash heap, using it as sort of a parable? People back then would've known exactly what He was talking about in the literal, but what exactly was He talking about? You see, it's exactly these kinds of verses and their figurative nature that make hell very hard to figure out. Hence this discussion. I would contend that we are further confused about hell by Luke 16:19-31. At that time, Jesus had not died for our sins yet, so everyone dead was sleeping. How can the dead man be conscious in a hell-type place and yet completely asleep as the Old Testament put it? Same goes for Lazarus. We know soul sleep happened before Christ, because when Saul has the Witch of Endor (no, she's not an Ewok, by the way) raise Samuel's spirit, the first thing Samuel says is, "Why have you woke me from my slumber?" So, what exactly is Jesus teaching here? It sounds to me like He could be teaching the first will be last in heaven and the last will be first. It also may be teaching that there's a hell type place where the unsaved goes and it's pretty horrible so please avoid it. However, it doesn't speak on how long it lasts. The point is that this story is figurative, and so we aren't certain exactly what is being taught figuratively or if anything is being taught in a literal sense. That's a very difficult story for scholars. Judgment is yet another very difficult term to discern unless one understands what the Hebrew culture knew the word to mean. It was not the same as the way we think of it. It did not necessarily mean the type of judgment we believe it to mean. Jesus says we remain under God's wrath until we're saved. Yet Paul says the unsaved will be judged by their own consciences apart from the Law. So, will some people be saved because they did what was right according to their conscience? I think this passage sums it up well: Micah 6:6-8 6 With what shall I come before the Lord, And bow myself before the High God? Shall I come before Him with burnt offerings, With calves a year old? 7 Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams, Ten thousand rivers of oil? Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression, The fruit of my body for the sin of my soul? 8 He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you But to do justly, To love mercy, And to walk humbly with your God? Now, consider those verses for a moment. God had instructed the people in sacrifices and bringing oil, etc, to account for certain sins. And yet Micah just said God requires none of that. He only requires that we do justly, love mercy and walk humbly with Him. So, the question becomes: does that apply to the unsaved too? Can the unsaved walk humbly with God and yet not know Him by name? I know the American Indians (not all, but some) served the Great White Spirit whom they called the Creator, and He sounds an awful lot like Jesus. They may not have known Him by name, but I believe they knew Him by a slightly different name. And no, I don't mean other religions believe in the one true God. I just mean that it may not always be cut and dry like we think it is. I think some people may walk with God in their hearts, because they always do what it right. They may not know they're walking with Him, but I think in their spirit, they are. Even though they aren't saved, I think God will judge them accordingly and offer them salvation at death. Now, can I get scriptural backing for that besides this one verse and what Paul says about the unsaved being judged by their consciences? Nope. And those verses aren't conclusive, so I don't make a doctrine out of this. I think it's very possibly true, but I won't say it is for sure. I'm very scientific about the way I research beliefs/doctrines. If I can't prove it, I don't hold it as a solid belief, just as a theory...a possibility. That's the only smart thing to do. That's why I won't be part of any denomination. Billy Graham, toward the end of his life, said he believed even the unsaved could know God and be saved in the end by Him. He knew the Bible very well, and yet he said that people could know God without knowing Him by name. Isn't that intriguing? Makes you wonder. I think he was on to something. Things aren't quite as cut and dry as we try to make them, and man's traditions of religion is the worst perpetrator of trying to choose beliefs we can't know for sure. I choose to be more careful about choosing what can and can't be proved. That's what makes discussions like this fun. - Brian |
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brianc
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Post by brianc on Jun 1, 2012 7:49:12 GMT -5
I will say, Jude 6-7 is a good verse to argue for an eternal hell. The only problem with that verse is that it doesn't say the suffering is eternal. It only says that the fire is eternal (I'm assuming this is the Lake of Fire it's talking about). There is one verse in the Old Testament which says people who go to hell burn up instantly, destroyed. Now, whether that's accurate or figurative, no one knows. This is such a tricky subject to come to a definite conclusion on. A good question to ask is this: does God get what He wants? He set up a rule that He won't infringe on our free will in Genesis 1:26-28 when He created us. But since He says in 2 Peter 3 that His will is that all repent and come to a knowledge of Him (being saved), then the question is will He be able to do that in some way? I don't know. He says nothing is too hard for Him and nothing is impossible for Him. All we have to do is put His will with the phrase that nothing is impossible or too hard for Him, and we get the very distinct impression that He plans to save everyone by somehow getting them all to repent. How? Who knows? Is that definitely what He will do? Who knows? If I had to bet money on it, I'd bet on Him being clever enough to know men's hearts so well (as He says He does) that He will be able to persuade everyone, one way or another, whether alive or dead, to accept Him. I think hell may be a part of that. Then again, I could be completely wrong. So...who knows? Great discussion. I appreciate the links and the verses given.  It's been a few years since I've researched this. Good to have a refresher. Last time, I was on the side of an eternal hell. In the past couple of years, I've started to see that the Bible may lean toward a slightly different use of hell, but I can't say for sure. - Brian |
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Post by Bainespal on Jun 1, 2012 18:41:40 GMT -5
I think it's smart to stay in the here and now, as well, with a focus on seeking God constantly and dying to self each day through service to others. I'll start by saying that I agree with this. My concept of salvation is that Christ takes us to His cross each day, so that we die to each sin with Him and are resurrected with Him. Not that I have my own formal doctrine or anything; it's just that that's how I perceive the Christian life, and I find that image much more powerful and element to my existential dilemma than just saying "I received Jesus as my Savior, so now I know I'm saved." Despite my problems with traditional Evangelicalism, my beliefs about hell are closest to the traditional beliefs. My views were strongly influenced by C.S. Lewis's books. I think we make hell for ourselves in every sinful choice. As the ultimate Reality, God is the way that things are supposed to be, since everything was made by and for Him. Anything that is not like God is not only morally wrong, but also painful and poisonous. I think that truth, law, goodness, and beauty (not temporal beauty, of course) are all the same. And I think falsehood, chaos, evil, and sin are all the same thing, the opposite. One thing I can't believe is the idea that people in hell eventually just "disappear"; that they will cease to exist. This doesn't make sense, because nothing ceases to exist. In the physical world, matter can be converted to energy and energy to matter, but the total amount of matter-energy in the universe is constant. Spiritually, God is the I AM, the ultimate Reality, and he made us in the image of His Reality. God would have to contradict Himself in order to unmake us. When a person dies, the physical body will exist until the end of the universe in some capacity, even if it totally disintegrates to the extent that nothing is left but pure energy. I think it's the same with the soul; souls in hell are "dead corpses" of the living souls, but that doesn't mean they cease to exist or cease to be conscious. We are actually born with dead souls already, and we still have spiritual awareness in our natural dead state. I believe that the answer to this is almost certainly no, because everyone will still be condemned even by their own conscience. Everyone has done things that they felt were wrong, even in the context of their own societies and their own consciences, even if they were not honest enough to acknowledge the fact to themselves. I believe C.S. Lewis suggests the same in Mere Christianity. I'm afraid to wholeheartedly embrace this idea, but I do have a suspicion that it might indeed be true. Not because people can be righteous according to the demands of their own consciences, but because the same God tugs at all people's hearts and knows everyone who seeks Him. Knowing the facts is not the same as having faith. Since one can have the facts right and still not have saving faith, I wonder if some people who don't have the facts might still have true faith. However, this does not imply that all people who don't know God by name still know him in spirit. It really is unrelated to the question of whether hell is eternal. C.S. Lewis seemed to believe that some non-Christians might be drawn to God through the Holy Spirit without knowing His name, but he definitely believed in hell. No, because of Free Well. Yes, because of Predestination. I think we've hit the central paradox of all existence, my friend! |
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brianc
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Post by brianc on Jun 2, 2012 17:36:51 GMT -5
One thing I can't believe is the idea that people in hell eventually just "disappear"; that they will cease to exist. This doesn't make sense, because nothing ceases to exist. In the physical world, matter can be converted to energy and energy to matter, but the total amount of matter-energy in the universe is constant. Spiritually, God is the I AM, the ultimate Reality, and he made us in the image of His Reality. God would have to contradict Himself in order to unmake us. I don't think any of us are qualified to answer that question. Just as God made everything, I imagine He can unmake something too. But does He? Who knows? So I can't answer this. I don't personally believe He burns people in hell and they cease to exist. I think everything given life keeps life, but whether they have spiritual life or spiritual death is another matter. But that's strictly a belief on my part, and not something I can backup scripturally, so I can't in good conscious teach it as doctrine...only my opinion. No, because of Free Well. Yes, because of Predestination. I think we've hit the central paradox of all existence, my friend! [/quote] [/quote] Again, I don't think we're qualified to answer that question and the Bible does not give us a clear answer on it either. Yes, we have free will, but God said that He knows the hearts of every man and He knows the future. I bet if you toss the most selfish person in the world into hell for even a few minutes, he'll become the must humble person in the world and be begging God to forgive him. I know I would, because something that horrible would instantly cause me to fear being selfish anymore knowing that selfishness got me there. To assume that we know answers such as then without scriptural backing seems like an unwise thing to do. God says His will is that everyone repent and come to a knowledge of Him. So, is God smart enough to coerce everyone into accepting Him eventually, even if it means sending some of them to hell to humble them? I think so. But can I prove that scripturally? Nope. So I can't hold it as a solid belief. It's strictly one of a few theories I hold as possibilities. I believe I can prove once saved always saved scripturally, and so I hold it as a fundamental belief. I don't believe hell being eternal or God saving everyone is provable scripturally speaking, and so I leave those to God. He would have told us in scripture if He wanted us to know. I trust that He has a plan, and that plan is greater than I can imagine, and I'll just leave it up to Him. It's not for me to know. |
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Post by Bainespal on Jun 2, 2012 23:10:48 GMT -5
I don't think any of us are qualified to answer that question. Just as God made everything, I imagine He can unmake something too. But does He? Who knows? So I can't answer this. I don't personally believe He burns people in hell and they cease to exist. I think everything given life keeps life, but whether they have spiritual life or spiritual death is another matter. But that's strictly a belief on my part, and not something I can backup scripturally, so I can't in good conscious teach it as doctrine...only my opinion. I apologize for sounding so certain. It's simply true that I can't believe in the annihilation of souls, but that surely does not mean that it can't be true. There's definitely bound to be tons of holes in my second-hand philosophy.  I don't think punishment is the only analogy by which to think of hell. As I tried to say in my previous post, I think hell is the natural result of selfishness. God is all joy and love and peace; outside of God's presence, there is only torment and endless unsatisfied devouring. We were created to worship God, and we can never be satisfied without Him. Let's say a person was living a lie and had hurt a friend badly. One day, the friend returned, and the person was now confronted with his offense. He could go to the friend and face the truth of what he had done. But if he is too proud to admit that he had been living a lie, the only thing left for him is to leave the presence of the friend forever. And if the friend happens to be the only source of joy and goodness, there will never again be any joy for this person. Now, I think that God must take a more proactive role in the final Judgement. There is probably another sense in which hell actually is a punishment. But I think it is also a choice by the damned, a choice to writhe in their miserable self-pity forever. All the people in hell probably go on accusing God of being unjust, imagining themselves as righteous sufferers and refusing to admit the fact that they were and forever are sinners. They are God's enemies by their own declaration and do not want to be reconciled with Him. I think that by sending them to hell, God gives them the only thing they ever wanted -- independence from God, the ability to pretend to be their own gods. God gives everyone what they want in the end, but not everyone will like what they receive. Of course, I cannot be certain of any of this, as I am not the measure of truth. It's just what I think is my best conception of things that I can't understand, what I think is most likely to be most true. And I know that my ideas can't be completely true, because my reasoning and understanding are both deeply flawed. |
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It's been a few years since I've researched this. Good to have a refresher. Last time, I was on the side of an eternal hell. In the past couple of years, I've started to see that the Bible may lean toward a slightly different use of hell, but I can't say for sure.
