brianc
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Posts: 78
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Post by brianc on Jun 3, 2012 6:48:40 GMT -5
I don't think any of us are qualified to answer that question. Just as God made everything, I imagine He can unmake something too. But does He? Who knows? So I can't answer this. I don't personally believe He burns people in hell and they cease to exist. I think everything given life keeps life, but whether they have spiritual life or spiritual death is another matter. But that's strictly a belief on my part, and not something I can backup scripturally, so I can't in good conscious teach it as doctrine...only my opinion. I apologize for sounding so certain. It's simply true that I can't believe in the annihilation of souls, but that surely does not mean that it can't be true. There's definitely bound to be tons of holes in my second-hand philosophy.  I don't think punishment is the only analogy by which to think of hell. As I tried to say in my previous post, I think hell is the natural result of selfishness. God is all joy and love and peace; outside of God's presence, there is only torment and endless unsatisfied devouring. We were created to worship God, and we can never be satisfied without Him. Let's say a person was living a lie and had hurt a friend badly. One day, the friend returned, and the person was now confronted with his offense. He could go to the friend and face the truth of what he had done. But if he is too proud to admit that he had been living a lie, the only thing left for him is to leave the presence of the friend forever. And if the friend happens to be the only source of joy and goodness, there will never again be any joy for this person. Now, I think that God must take a more proactive role in the final Judgement. There is probably another sense in which hell actually is a punishment. But I think it is also a choice by the damned, a choice to writhe in their miserable self-pity forever. All the people in hell probably go on accusing God of being unjust, imagining themselves as righteous sufferers and refusing to admit the fact that they were and forever are sinners. They are God's enemies by their own declaration and do not want to be reconciled with Him. I think that by sending them to hell, God gives them the only thing they ever wanted -- independence from God, the ability to pretend to be their own gods. God gives everyone what they want in the end, but not everyone will like what they receive. Of course, I cannot be certain of any of this, as I am not the measure of truth. It's just what I think is my best conception of things that I can't understand, what I think is most likely to be most true. And I know that my ideas can't be completely true, because my reasoning and understanding are both deeply flawed. The question here isn't whether people go to a hell or a hell-type place. I think it's the question of if hell is eternal or if there is a chance that Jesus will, at some point, give the people there a chance to repent and be saved. I don't think people in hell will have any idea of who Jesus is. I think there's absolutely nothing good in hell, and no memory of anything good even. Just as there is a verse that says we won't remember our lives before when we're in heaven (all sins and mistakes forgotten), I think hell may be the same, but in the opposite manner--remembering nothing good in life. And if God is the only one good, then we wouldn't remember Him while we're there. It's just a theory, of course. I believe people choose to go to hell by choosing selfishness. However, selfishness, in and of itself, seeks what is best for self. Therefore, if they get to hell and see that their selfishness got them there, they would be seeking a way out. If there's one thing that's certain, it's that selfish people are never satisfied. Therefore, when Jesus comes down and says, "If you just repent of your sins and ask for forgiveness, I can save you and take you to a place much better than this," my guess is that they're going to jump on that chance out of selfishness, which will turn into selflessness when they're saved. That's completely theory, though, of course. No biblical backing for that outside of the verse that says Jesus made proclamation to the spirits in prison, whatever that means. I simply choose to withhold judgment on this matter since it's not provable. That's all. I don't want to tell someone they'll burn forever if I can't prove it biblically, and I don't want to tell them they'll be saved out of hell eventually for the same reason. I don't know. No way to know, really. So, it comes back to running the race to win, being a light to the world, and winning as many as we can right now and focusing only on God rather than hell. That's really all we can do. |
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Post by isabeau on Jun 3, 2012 11:40:32 GMT -5
Billy Graham, toward the end of his life, said he believed even the unsaved could know God and be saved in the end by Him. He knew the Bible very well, and yet he said that people could know God without knowing Him by name. Billy Graham is still alive. Just FYI. |
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Post by Divides the Waters on Jun 3, 2012 19:16:06 GMT -5
There is one verse in the Old Testament which says people who go to hell burn up instantly, destroyed. Now, whether that's accurate or figurative, no one knows. This is such a tricky subject to come to a definite conclusion on. Brian, Can you find this verse? I am very interested in the subject as, like you, I have had some theological paradigm shifts in the last few years. I would like to congratulate you on some deep thought and a challenging subject. Rob |
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brianc
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by brianc on Jun 4, 2012 6:38:34 GMT -5
Billy Graham, toward the end of his life, said he believed even the unsaved could know God and be saved in the end by Him. He knew the Bible very well, and yet he said that people could know God without knowing Him by name. Billy Graham is still alive. Just FYI. I must have read that article a while back and I'm getting my details mixed up. It probably said toward the end of his ministry, before he handed it over to his son. My mistake. I was thinking he died not long ago for some reason. |
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brianc
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by brianc on Jun 4, 2012 7:49:20 GMT -5
There is one verse in the Old Testament which says people who go to hell burn up instantly, destroyed. Now, whether that's accurate or figurative, no one knows. This is such a tricky subject to come to a definite conclusion on. Brian, Can you find this verse? I am very interested in the subject as, like you, I have had some theological paradigm shifts in the last few years. I would like to congratulate you on some deep thought and a challenging subject. Rob I'm horrible with remembering verse numbers, and this is a verse I haven't read for years. I'll give you what I think is the verse: Psalm 37:9-11,20,38 9 For evildoers shall be cut off; But those who wait on the Lord, They shall inherit the earth. 10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more; Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more. 11 But the meek shall inherit the earth, And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace. 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away. 38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off. Psalm 1:5 5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. Psalm 145:20 20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy. These passages make the point that the wicked will cease to exist...will 'be no more'. Philippians 3:18-19 18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: 19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.) That passage uses "destruction", meaning they will cease to exist. There are many verses in the Old Testament which allude to it, but again, hell is very hard to pin down in the Bible. Instead of hell being used in the Old Testament, it was really the grave being used, not hell. They're synonymous to the translators of 1611. And Revelation, it seems that the lake of fire is described as finality rather than eternal torment. As if people would burn up. And God would have to resurrect the dead into bodies that would live forever if He wanted them to burn forever in hell. That doesn't make much sense, nor does the Bible teach that. A good argument for Annihilation is found here, but it's long: www.biblicalperspectives.com/books/immortality_resurrection/6.htmAgain, I don't see enough evidence for any one view to stand out. Knowing God, I tend to think there is a hell-like place where people are punished for a period of time strictly to humble them, and then Jesus will offer them salvation at some point. However, certain verses cause me to think that may not be the case. But I can't be sure what those verses are saying. Too much figurative language being tossed around. If that view is not true, my next option is destruction of the unsaved, or those judged evil according to their conscience, as Paul speaks of in Romans (I'm pretty sure it's Romans). So, everything evil simply will ceased to exist in the end. This is definitely a possibility, because I've seen something interesting when working with people who have Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD). I won't go into it, though. Too much information for this short conversation. As for an eternal tormenting hell, I really can't say I see that in the Bible. The worms that never die and the fire that is not quenched, as you will see in that webpage above, really speak more about the carcass than the person, and final destruction rather than eternal destruction. So, again, it goes back to the fact that we should all just focus on serving God today with all our heart, and hope that we are a light to others so that they will seek Him and be saved too. That's my take, anyway. - Brian |
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Post by Divides the Waters on Jun 5, 2012 20:15:49 GMT -5
If you like, PM me with the MPD info. I am very intrigued.
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Post by fluke on Jun 27, 2012 21:36:00 GMT -5
If anyone is interested, I wrote a paper on the doctrine of annihilation while in seminary. You might not be surprised to know I found the doctrine of annihilation unbiblical. PM me if you want a copy emailed to you.
One of the best books I read on it was Two Views on Hell: A Biblical and Theological Dialogue. In that work, a proponent of annihilation (Edward Fudge) and a proponent of eternal punishment (Robert A. Peterson) lay out their case and critique each other. Very good presentation of the best from both sides. Most books in the Counterpoints series I found very helpful.
I'll include the section on Christology and annihilation from my paper here. (And as an aside, "destroy" does not always mean to annihilate. It means "ruin" and the nature of ruin depends on the nature of the thing destroyed. for example Num 21:29 refers to being sold into slavery as being destroyed. Luke 15 uses the Greek for destroyed in the parables of the lost coin, sheep, and son. In all of those, the destroyed item still exists. For more examples of “destroy,” see also Rom 14:15; Luke 5:37; John 6:27; Matt 2:13; and 8:25.)
Christology
Edward Fudge states throughout his works, “The cross shows us a picture of total destruction and death from which God alone can deliver.”[1] On one hand, Fudge correctly states that only God can deliver sinners from Hell. However, his related statements in other places show he believes that Christ was annihilated while on the cross.[2] His logical argument may be summarized as “if (A) the wages of sin is death, and (B) death means annihilation, then (C) Christ was annihilated on the cross.” This logical fallacy cannot stand scrutiny.
First, (B) begs the question at hand. Death does not mean annihilation, as this paper has already established. Death refers to separation. Furthermore, Fudge’s proposal does serious damage to theology. Many questions concerning the Trinity and re-creation of one member come to mind.[3] Perhaps the two most important questions come after reading Christ’s words in Luke 23:43, “I tell you the truth, this day you will be with me in Paradise.” First, “Paradise” would then indicate another word for annihilation. Second and more important, this verse implies that believers will be annihilated as well.
However, the problems of annihilating Christ do not end with a few questions and word plays. Operating under the assumption that Christ was annihilated, the question naturally arises “was all of Christ annihilated, only His divine part, or only His human side?” To accept the premise means that one of the options must be chosen. Yet, all three options have numerous problems.[4] When either side is annihilated, the doctrine of hypostatic union comes apart. Hypostatic union declares that God the Son has both divine side and human side melded together in such a way that they can never be separated and intertwine so fully that an observer cannot tell where one ends and the other begins.[5] Whether or not one agrees with annihilation of the human soul, a belief that Christ was annihilated must be discarded.
[1] Fudge, Two Views on Hell, 55, 204-206; Idem, Fire that Consumes, 215-234.
[2]Fudge, The Fire that Consumes, 215-234. Lest any assume that this paper takes Fudge too far, note that Peterson (Two Views on Hell, 174-179) confronts Fudge on this teaching (understanding the 20 pages at their face value), and Fudge confirms this is exactly what he meant. Fudge teaches that Christ death as “God’s wrath poured out upon him” involved annihilation. Please note, however, that though many words are used to describe Christ’s death on the cross, none of the words that annihilationists base their teaches on describe Christ’s death on the cross. Scripture never says that Christ was “consumed” and only once does it refer to his death as “destruction” (note the Pharisees in Matthew 12:14 say, “Let us destroy him.”). As Stott admits (Edwards and Stott, Evangelical Essentials, 315), when destroy is used in this form it means simply “put to death.” Instead, Scripture teaches that Christ would never see corruption (Ps. 16:10; Acts 2:27; 13:35). If (per annihilationists) “corruption” means “destruction” and “annihilation” then Scripture explicitly denies the annihilation of Christ hypothesis.
[3]Just a few of the questions annihilationists have to answer: What does this mean for the Godhead? Was there a “binity” during the three days of Christ’s “annihilation”? Was Christ re-created at the resurrection or merely reincarnated? Does the re-creation of Jesus (whom John 1:1-4 calls “uncreated”) imply a fourth person in the Godhead? Is this re-created Christ the same Christ who died on the cross?
[4]A brief summary of he problems of Christ’s annihilation have been mentioned in the footnotes to the paragraphs above. Peterson explains the results of partial annihilation in Two Views on Hell, 106 and 174-179.
[5]Peterson, Two Views on Hell, 177. While Scripture never uses the words hypostatic union and the doctrine first comes to be at the Council of Chalcedon (A.D. 451), the doctrine stands solidly upon Scripture (i.e. John 1:1-18; Col. 1:15-19; 2:9; Philippians 2:6-11; and Hebrews 1-2). Fudge’s response that traditionalists themselves have yet to answer all the mysteries of hypostatic union and the death, burial, and resurrection does not satisfy (Fudge, Two Views on Hell, 205). His responses consist of false trails and theological dead ends.
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brianc
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by brianc on Jun 28, 2012 13:45:18 GMT -5
If anyone is interested, I wrote a paper on the doctrine of annihilation while in seminary. You might not be surprised to know I found the doctrine of annihilation unbiblical. PM me if you want a copy emailed to you. One of the best books I read on it was Two Views on Hell: A Biblical and Theological Dialogue. In that work, a proponent of annihilation (Edward Fudge) and a proponent of eternal punishment (Robert A. Peterson) lay out their case and critique each other. Very good presentation of the best from both sides. Most books in the Counterpoints series I found very helpful. I'll include the section on Christology and annihilation from my paper here. (And as an aside, "destroy" does not always mean to annihilate. It means "ruin" and the nature of ruin depends on the nature of the thing destroyed. for example Num 21:29 refers to being sold into slavery as being destroyed. Luke 15 uses the Greek for destroyed in the parables of the lost coin, sheep, and son. In all of those, the destroyed item still exists. For more examples of “destroy,” see also Rom 14:15; Luke 5:37; John 6:27; Matt 2:13; and 8:25.) ChristologyEdward Fudge states throughout his works, “The cross shows us a picture of total destruction and death from which God alone can deliver.”[1] On one hand, Fudge correctly states that only God can deliver sinners from Hell. However, his related statements in other places show he believes that Christ was annihilated while on the cross.[2] His logical argument may be summarized as “if (A) the wages of sin is death, and (B) death means annihilation, then (C) Christ was annihilated on the cross.” This logical fallacy cannot stand scrutiny. First, (B) begs the question at hand. Death does not mean annihilation, as this paper has already established. Death refers to separation. Furthermore, Fudge’s proposal does serious damage to theology. Many questions concerning the Trinity and re-creation of one member come to mind.[3] Perhaps the two most important questions come after reading Christ’s words in Luke 23:43, “I tell you the truth, this day you will be with me in Paradise.” First, “Paradise” would then indicate another word for annihilation. Second and more important, this verse implies that believers will be annihilated as well. However, the problems of annihilating Christ do not end with a few questions and word plays. Operating under the assumption that Christ was annihilated, the question naturally arises “was all of Christ annihilated, only His divine part, or only His human side?” To accept the premise means that one of the options must be chosen. Yet, all three options have numerous problems.[4] When either side is annihilated, the doctrine of hypostatic union comes apart. Hypostatic union declares that God the Son has both divine side and human side melded together in such a way that they can never be separated and intertwine so fully that an observer cannot tell where one ends and the other begins.[5] Whether or not one agrees with annihilation of the human soul, a belief that Christ was annihilated must be discarded. [1] Fudge, Two Views on Hell, 55, 204-206; Idem, Fire that Consumes, 215-234. [2]Fudge, The Fire that Consumes, 215-234. Lest any assume that this paper takes Fudge too far, note that Peterson ( Two Views on Hell, 174-179) confronts Fudge on this teaching (understanding the 20 pages at their face value), and Fudge confirms this is exactly what he meant. Fudge teaches that Christ death as “God’s wrath poured out upon him” involved annihilation. Please note, however, that though many words are used to describe Christ’s death on the cross, none of the words that annihilationists base their teaches on describe Christ’s death on the cross. Scripture never says that Christ was “consumed” and only once does it refer to his death as “destruction” (note the Pharisees in Matthew 12:14 say, “Let us destroy him.”). As Stott admits (Edwards and Stott, Evangelical Essentials, 315), when destroy is used in this form it means simply “put to death.” Instead, Scripture teaches that Christ would never see corruption (Ps. 16:10; Acts 2:27; 13:35). If (per annihilationists) “corruption” means “destruction” and “annihilation” then Scripture explicitly denies the annihilation of Christ hypothesis. [3]Just a few of the questions annihilationists have to answer: What does this mean for the Godhead? Was there a “binity” during the three days of Christ’s “annihilation”? Was Christ re-created at the resurrection or merely reincarnated? Does the re-creation of Jesus (whom John 1:1-4 calls “uncreated”) imply a fourth person in the Godhead? Is this re-created Christ the same Christ who died on the cross? [4]A brief summary of he problems of Christ’s annihilation have been mentioned in the footnotes to the paragraphs above. Peterson explains the results of partial annihilation in Two Views on Hell, 106 and 174-179. [5]Peterson, Two Views on Hell, 177. While Scripture never uses the words hypostatic union and the doctrine first comes to be at the Council of Chalcedon (A.D. 451), the doctrine stands solidly upon Scripture (i.e. John 1:1-18; Col. 1:15-19; 2:9; Philippians 2:6-11; and Hebrews 1-2). Fudge’s response that traditionalists themselves have yet to answer all the mysteries of hypostatic union and the death, burial, and resurrection does not satisfy (Fudge, Two Views on Hell, 205). His responses consist of false trails and theological dead ends. I don't believe in annihillation. I think it is likely that hell is a holding take for the unsaved, and that it is thrown into the Lake of Fire in the end. However, I think it is very possible that the function of hell is to punish a person in order to create a humble spirit in them so they will repent and be saved. I also think eternal punishment is a possibility, as well, but it makes more sense with God's character to punish for the purpose of humbling so that He can achieve His will of getting everyone to repent and be saved. That's just what I think is likely, but not necessarily the way it will be. The Bible doesn't give enough information to know for sure. If it did, we likely wouldn't be having this conversation. lol - Brian |
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