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Post by metalikhan on Jun 18, 2013 1:16:56 GMT -5
Research is fun, but sometimes it can be oh-so frustrating. For the past several days, I've been trying to wrap my brain around concepts in astro-physics and space travel for a story. On a subatomic level, neutrinos seem to be able to go ftl, but there seems to be some debate as to whether they may be moving interdimensionally rather than on a single dimensional plane. Whichever it is, they can move through matter without causing any effect because they have no positive or negative charge. If it were possible to "collect" neutrinos and shape them, would it then be possible to envelope a physical object or being within, say, a neutrino bubble to move it ftl to another location? If so, would what/whoever is contained in it experience a similar time dilation as someone traveling at sublight speed? And even though the theoretical neutrino bubble could pass through matter, would it nonetheless be affected by distortions in space? Any thoughts? (My brain can't decide whether it's dizzy or just plain hurts from this!  ) |
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Post by Bainespal on Jun 18, 2013 19:03:48 GMT -5
If it were possible to "collect" neutrinos and shape them, would it then be possible to envelope a physical object or being within, say, a neutrino bubble to move it ftl to another location? I'm no expert on science fiction warp theories, but this doesn't sound too far off from Star Trek's take on warp drive. The two nacelles on either side of the ship create a "warp bubble," containing a pocket of normal space in which the ship exists inside some kind of dimensional abnormality that can travel through the outside normal space faster than light. I don't know if Star Trek's concept has anything to do with neutrinos. Ender's Game shows a time dillation effect experienced when travelling faster than light. I think the hypothesis is that time dilation would happen if it were possible to propel a ship faster than light without a "warp bubble." But I think anyone who knows anything at all about physics would cringe at what I just wrote. Maybe the neutrino thing presents an opportunity to combine the "warp bubble" concept with the dimensional gateway concept. I like the way FTL travel is presented in Battlestar Galactica (the newer series), where the course has to be plotted ahead of time, and then everyone on board the ship experiences the FTL journey as an instantaneous "jump." The show conveniently ignores the time-dilation question; even travelling faster than light, it would make sense that a jump to another sector of space would take some amount of time, so that the crew would have lost time when they arrive, even though they were not aware of the passage of time. |
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Post by Christian Soldier on Jun 19, 2013 5:10:42 GMT -5
CJ Cherryh does the sudden jump thing, too, and has a lot of fun with it. Check it out!
As for Neutrinos, it might be better to classify them as a separate plane of existence and then Phase into it.
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Post by metalikhan on Jun 19, 2013 12:05:47 GMT -5
Good examples. Thanks, gents!
Why I'm grappling with this is because the technology I'm extrapolating plays a key role in why certain things are done as they are. Decisions made based on how this technology works has profound effects and repercussions on both human and non-human characters.
So even though it may wind up junk science I'm extrapolating, it still needs to be somewhat believable and understandable to any reader (other than a real-life physicist).
In the story, there's a tandem "technology" using wormhole & quantum foam theory with the addtion of a predictability factor (according to some of the characters). Other characters have tried to adapt it to neutrino-based capabilities, but it's not entirely compatible with the limitations they have.
Fun. Agonizing. Brain-bending. ;D
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Post by newburydave on Jun 21, 2013 14:39:31 GMT -5
Metal... I think if you get too wrapped up in the how of the FTL technology you run the risk of writing a "Steam Grommet Factory" esque story. Remember, conflict and Character development IS THE STORY PEOPLE WILL PAY FOR! The approach I take to Uninvented tech at this point is something I'll call the "Just Do It" approach. Most people today don't have a clue how the tech in our lives works. The only thing they know about is how to make it work and what it will do for them. They are tech users. End of story. Most women and men that I know, including my Physics teacher wife, look at our cars from the "If I turn the key will it start" point of view. If it doesn't start we call AAA and get a car mechanic. (Spaceship mechanic if you drive a....oh, nevermind.) The "JDI" approach to tech says: "Nobody really knows how it works, but they know how to make it work and who to call if it doesn't." That makes our job writing simpler. Merely figure out what you need your FTL tech to do and put some reasonable limitations on it that you can use as literary devices in the story. Define all the capabilities and how the average person makes it work. Then leave the how it works to the experts...who you write into the story at strategic places and whose explainations of what they're doing bore the real people in the story to exasperated, "I don't care how it works, just fix it!" levels of awareness because the Scum Sucking Beaurocratic Meanies are bearing down on them with their doom rule machine and they need the FTL working ten minutes ago....<<<pant, pant, pant>>> What I'm saying is forget you are really a techie, think and write as if you were a normal person (I know it's hard but I've got confidence in you; try to think like a mother). And please don't open any transdimensional portals until you KNOW what's on the other side. We've had way too many other dimensionial nasties wandering around in our neighborhood recently. Write on sis SGD dave |
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Post by stormiel on Jun 22, 2013 4:56:24 GMT -5
Definitely interesting stuff to think about. My friend Bridget and I were talking about something similar to this and she started comparing Doctor Who and Star Trek. She was telling me that in Doctor Who her favorite thing was the sonic screwdriver, "Why did it work? Because its sonic." She then went on to say that she liked the way they handled it better than Star Trek because rather than spending a good 20 minutes trying to convince the viewer of pseudo-science, they let the viewer take it for what it was and concentrated more on the main story. I've never watched Doctor Who, but I watched a few episodes of Star Trek since then and she was right, they spend about a quarter or more of the show trying to make their science seem legit.
I think it depends on two things. Does it add to the story? Or is it distracting without it? Take Battle Star Galactica, they take fictional science and make it really work for the story, while remaining character driven. If you didn't have the crazy genetic engineering stuff with the Cylons it wouldn't be much of a story. (As much as I used to like this show, I cant recommend it because its content.) On the other hand you have Star Wars which doesn't explain how things function, it just gives them a name and uses them to further the plot.
One thing that bugs the crud out of me is when I see laser guns/cannons firing lasers and you can see the laser pulse slowly traveling to its target. Its an intense light beam, traveling at the speed of light... It's not going to slow down and look pretty! Now maybe if you are firing through a Bose-Einstein condensate...
Coming back from that rabbit trail, my theory is to research everything that's needed but put as little as possible into my story, that way I know just a little more than what I'm writing down.
In the SF that I've read, I've found that it distracts when there is a lack of information, but it becomes a train wreck when there is a lot of information that is blatantly wrong, e.g. lasers. I'm really impressed when the author is talking about something I know about and they get it right but at the same time if it pulls me out of the story to stop and admire the writer then its distracting from the story. If its something the character uses regularly (but not so much that it becomes boring) then it lends credibility to the story. A lot also depends on setting. An SF story set a hundred years from now on Earth or an Earth colony would differ a lot from something set in a different universe at a different time. That's just my two cents and why I'm gonna stick to space opera for now lol.
Good luck with your story!
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Post by metalikhan on Jun 23, 2013 0:27:59 GMT -5
There's much to be said for the JDI approach, and if this were space opera, it would work fine. And really, the minimalist approach is satisfactory for some of the stories in this setting. For others, it's a critical part of the characters and conflicts (most of them are cybernetic). I lean toward including an appendix to give more complete information, if only because (A) some of the extrapolation depends on scientific applications that are quite real but sound unbelievable, or (B) some of it runs counter to a lot of theories and fads I've heard/read. (I've been asked more than once why wireless transmission of data won't work on the space ships.)
But maybe a little backstory is in order.
The very first story I wrote in this milieu was rejected by Omni (anyone remember that SF magazine?) along with the handwritten note Insufficient science for credibility.
In the intervening years, I've worked on more of the milieu's stories, but a number of test readers have questioned or objected to the sketchy approach because the technologies and sciences are so deeply intertwined with the characters' challenges and conflicts at several levels: social, physical, spiritual, mental, emotional ...
For example, in the current story, an aspect of ftl science has placed an unhappily married couple in a lethal situation. They face some very hard choices that will affect not only their survival but also the survival of all/some of the passengers their ship carries. They have no actual go-to person to solve the problem; they will all die if they don't fix it, but doing what's needed to fix it might also result in their deaths plus a portion of their passengers.
In another story, the complete physical and mental breakdown of character occurs primarily because of the cybernetic technology and loneliness (the ftl science doesn't play as much a role in this one).
And in yet another tale, neutrino-based communication is the means of saving the pilot so the ship doesn't drift aimlessly for centuries. (This was one in which the minimalist approach worked fine; neutrinos are never actually mentioned because the character who figures out how to communicate doesn't know that aspect of the science in what she's doing.)
To date, only one of the stories has been accepted for publication (anthology). The others (those completed plus those in work -- a total of fifteen) will be grouped as a closely linked collection.
As with other aspects of writing, there's a delicate balancing act. Too much, too little -- how best to judge.
I agree about the lasers, stormiel! I used to operate a machine that cut metal with laser. There was nothing slow about the beam, and a coordinate error or power surge could make scrap faster than an eye-blink.
LOL Yeah, Dave, those transdimensional portals can be tricksy. Don't want anything creeping/flapping/oozing in from the dungeon dimensions. ;D
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Post by newburydave on Jun 25, 2013 10:06:44 GMT -5
Just watch out for the 11th dimension, that's where Satan's chaos lives. ( I think the demented garden gnomes are from that neighborhood, I know the IRS is ). Please make sure they get their chocolate chip cookies, we don't want another outbreak... And good providence hitting the right balance between JDI and Exposition. Maybe you could have some of the technicians mutter to themselves while they try to debug the broken tech. SGD dave |
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Post by Bainespal on Jun 26, 2013 14:43:48 GMT -5
There's much to be said for the JDI approach, and if this were space opera, it would work fine. Even in television space operas, the basic explanation of how faster-than-light travel works is one of the most defining characteristics of the franchises, because FTL is an inseparable part of both the plot and the worldbuilding. Star Trek wouldn't be Star Trek without Warp 9. The hyperspace gateways are an important part of the mythos of Babylon 5 and form several plot points during the course of the show. The jump-based system of Battlestar Galactica is probably not as important to the show's mythos, but the simplicity of the concept is an important part of the show's austere, realistic aesthetic. I think the proper balance is that you don't need to know how the ship's engines can do whatever needs to be done for FTL to be possible. I think you do need to know the fundamental theory of how FTL works in your universe. |
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Post by newburydave on Jun 27, 2013 8:45:46 GMT -5
Amen to that Bainespal;
That's kind of what I meant by knowing how to make it work, what it does and the limitations / constraints of the applied technology.
~*~
In one of my story Space Opera universes ships accelerate to the speed of light, (using differential mass impulse drivers [this is actually existing tech that NASA has used on satellites]) and a generated 'gravitic plane' allows them to batter their way through the dimensional barrier into higher dimensions where additional orthogonal dimensions cause the value of c (the speed of light) to increase geometrically relative to our 4 dimensional space. That is a creation universe where the top of the dimensioal matrix is God's House which surrounds the created universe and contains infinite dimensionality (all things are possible and present with God).
Humanity can't even mathematically describe relative dimensionality, even using advanced statistical techniques, above the third level 'up-dimension' so they need Angel Navigators (who can see the Gloryscape up-dimension) to guide them through the upper dimensonal levels to their destination.
Yes, I mean actual metaphysical Angels, like guardian angels except starship navigators. Hey, I set it up to be a theistic, creation story space where spiritual realities are visible and the good guys are all God-Fearing sentients [Aplohe- {Erst: Ap=Son(s) of Elohim=Creator God} vs. Apdam - {Ap=Son(s) of Adam= The first, the fallen natural man; servant of sin and the abyss})
~*~
In Another, more "realistic", story universe I'm developing humanity has discovered, by accident and trial and error, how to "climb up the underlying Probability waves of the space time matrix". FTL occurs "up-the P waves", above the Langsam Space (L-space) [Langsam- {german for slow}] where normal 4-D space is formed by the superposition of the 4D probaility wave troughs. God's being and presenence is fully realized at the uppper crests of the Pwaves.
FTL travel occurs "up" the P-waves above L-Space in "Tachy Space" [Tachy-fast] in the region of hyper-light velocity described by the division of Physics called "Tachy Space probability physics"
Thus, all spacers are believers in God, though the more secular ones are Deists to a degree. Christianity has survived the diaspora from Earth to the stars and many of my POV characters are Biblical, Spirit Filled Christians. Athiests and die hard evolutionists only do space travel in cold sleep so they don't have to confront the reality of God's person and presence at the High P-Levels.
Aside from that there are all the vices and excesses currently represented in the human nature manifest in this universe. Carnality, the sin nature, is after all universal and well able to live in stubborn denial of easily observed reality to maintain it's self-centered, selfish way of living for this world only.
This story universe is the one I'm currently doing most of my writing in. I just like it more, techonologically, since I'm an engineer and statistician by training.
~*~
Of course I also like to throw in Transdimensional / Quantum Entanglement Portals which usually exist on Planetary surfaces to allow instantaneous translation from one world to another without the need for any tech at all. Well, you do need a "pedestrian" magical way to span great distances after all. These were part of creation / maintained-constructed by God's Regulae, the agents through whom He maintains the infrastructure of the universe while Man works out his redemption from the fall.
==========
However, the average ordinary characters just use the tech / portals without really caring how they work. They just know what's possible and what's not. That's sort of how we developed flight technology BTW. Aeronautics only became a science after we'd been flying for about 50 years and it's still a black art at the fringes of the powered flight envelope.
IMHO, to be believable a story must align with our own racial history concerning the development and deployment of technology.
Write on beloved siblings
SGD
dave
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Post by metalikhan on Jul 2, 2013 11:20:03 GMT -5
A quick note (the techno-beast is crabby today  ). Two comparisons I've found in fiction to the ftl technologies I'm using are the slipstream concept used on the old Andromeda series and the folding space concept from Dune. Not really like them, but they're the closest ones I've found so far. |
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Post by Kessie on Jul 6, 2013 20:10:41 GMT -5
Great thread! Most people aren't going to know if you fudge some of the science. I wrote extensively about creatures with whole nanite colonies in their bodies for accelerated healing (and nanotech-based brains for killer robots). A real scientist would laugh at me, but the various folks who read those stories thought my science was great. Also, here's a concept for an actual FTL engine. The ship wouldn't accelerate--it'd just kind of warp through space. It's a loophole! techland.time.com/2012/09/19/nasa-actually-working-on-faster-than-light-warp-drive/ |
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Post by newburydave on Jul 8, 2013 2:36:59 GMT -5
Ummm, the coming field for tech development is in the biomolecular engineering realm. Put into normal speak, they are developing the basics to deploy nanotechnology biological microrobots for medical applications.
It's been a staple of hard science fiction for several decades now, and the engineers are now working on building the real thing.
How about "Hard Holograpic displays", a Japanese company started beta testing a holographic "Keyboard" this past year where tapping a holographic image generates a control input.
Don't be constrained by existing tech, be futurists, prophesy about the develping trends in tech, extrapolate beyond the existing limits of knowlege. Be the visionaries who force the techs to create the future.
Keep writing
SGD
dave
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Post by Kessie on Jul 8, 2013 20:39:41 GMT -5
Yeah, but real nanotech is about building single-celled machines to go out and do specific tasks, or to be one-cell computers. Nobody's built a Positronic Brain out of them. Especially when it comes down to the being in question debating whether they're truly alive or a machine, since nanites are definitely somewhere in between.
A friend of mine used all the science from Crichton's Prey, about nanites, to come up with a much better story about a man who used a nanite swarm to convert living people into robot minions. As my friend said, the science was so good, but Crichton's story was soooo bad. :-D
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Post by Adam David Collings on Oct 2, 2013 23:24:26 GMT -5
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