POV and narrative character handles

[Bainespal]

I've started a fiction project, a historical/Biblical fiction that an older person from my church asked me to co-write.

I want to introduce character by a brief description before revealing the name in dialog, and then to use there names instead of the description from then on. In the draft of the prologue that I started writing, I do this with the POV character. I think the suspense is well worth it, since this is a Biblical fiction and the character is a well-known figure from the Bible.

For supporting characters, a problem arises, because the protagonist/POV character already knows the names of many of the other characters. Simply using the name the first time that character appears seems jarring to me, but not using the name means making the third-person POV even more limited. Another problem is that I want to use characters' names in the narrative after mentioning their names for the first time, but sometimes a scene doesn't seem to require mentioning the name. Obscuring the identity of the side character for another scene would be insane, given that the protagonist knows the side character's name.

[metalikhan]

Aug 1, 2013 19:30:17 GMT -5 Bainespal said:

I've started a fiction project, a historical/Biblical fiction that an older person from my church asked me to co-write.

I want to introduce character by a brief description before revealing the name in dialog, and then to use there names instead of the description from then on. In the draft of the prologue that I started writing, I do this with the POV character. I think the suspense is well worth it, since this is a Biblical fiction and the character is a well-known figure from the Bible.

For supporting characters, a problem arises, because the protagonist/POV character already knows the names of many of the other characters. Simply using the name the first time that character appears seems jarring to me, but not using the name means making the third-person POV even more limited. Another problem is that I want to use characters' names in the narrative after mentioning their names for the first time, but sometimes a scene doesn't seem to require mentioning the name. Obscuring the identity of the side character for another scene would be insane, given that the protagonist knows the side character's name.

It sounds as though you and your co-writer have settled on using 3rd person but not on the depth of the narrative voice. Will it be Deep/Close POV, limited but with layered depths, omniscient?

Other than withholding identities, what suspense will there be in the story? What events or conflicts drive it? Remember the adage: no conflict, no story.

As for supporting characters, this is where description can play its part. If your MC knows another character but doesn't always address him/her by name, a line or brief paragraph to bring him/her into the scene will serve. If s/he is simply on the sidelines, you can put the character into position until s/he is needed to play a more active role in the scene.

Does any of that help? Or am I totally out of the ballpark in undertanding the challenge you have?

[Bainespal]

Aug 3, 2013 1:18:41 GMT -5 metalikhan said:

Will it be Deep/Close POV, limited but with layered depths, omniscient?

The way the draft looks now, the POV is limited. It follows one character, but it doesn't know everything there is to know about even that character. I've allowed the narrative to express more about the POV character's thoughts and feelings than about the other characters'. I don't think I want to explicitly tell what the POV character is thinking, because that usually feels weird to me as a reader.

If the narrator is a little midget sitting on the POV character's shoulder, the midget has a good idea about what the POV character is feeling and thinking (it's a smart midget), but the midget is not telepathic. The "midget" doesn't necessarily know everything that the POV character already knows prior to the story. I want the narrative to be closer to the POV character than to the other characters, but still not extremely close even to the POV character, if that makes sense.

Other than withholding identities, what suspense will there be in the story? What events or conflicts drive it? Remember the adage: no conflict, no story.

Withholding identities is not an important source of suspense. I just thought it would be a neat little technique for the opening of the story, so that the reader could wonder who the protagonist is for the duration of paragraph or two, until the protagonist is addressed by name in dialog. After the character is addressed by name, I use the name in the narrative rather than the descriptive handle. I want to do the same for all the other characters, but that is where the difficulty comes in.

As for supporting characters, this is where description can play its part. If your MC knows another character but doesn't always address him/her by name, a line or brief paragraph to bring him/her into the scene will serve. If s/he is simply on the sidelines, you can put the character into position until s/he is needed to play a more active role in the scene.

So, it's all right not to use a characters name in the narrative until moving them from the sidelines into a more important role, even though the POV character knows that character's name? That's exactly what I want to do, except the use of the name in the narrative is contingent upon the name being revealed to reader in dialog.

Does any of that help? Or am I totally out of the ballpark in undertanding the challenge you have?

Yes, it does help, although I don't think I understand all this POV stuff very well. Thank you, very much.

[metalikhan]

Aug 3, 2013 10:04:06 GMT -5 Bainespal said:

The way the draft looks now, the POV is limited. It follows one character, but it doesn't know everything there is to know about even that character. I've allowed the narrative to express more about the POV character's thoughts and feelings than about the other characters'. I don't think I want to explicitly tell what the POV character is thinking, because that usually feels weird to me as a reader.

If the narrator is a little midget sitting on the POV character's shoulder, the midget has a good idea about what the POV character is feeling and thinking (it's a smart midget), but the midget is not telepathic. The "midget" doesn't necessarily know everything that the POV character already knows prior to the story. I want the narrative to be closer to the POV character than to the other characters, but still not extremely close even to the POV character, if that makes sense.

Withholding identities is not an important source of suspense. I just thought it would be a neat little technique for the opening of the story, so that the reader could wonder who the protagonist is for the duration of paragraph or two, until the protagonist is addressed by name in dialog. After the character is addressed by name, I use the name in the narrative rather than the descriptive handle. I want to do the same for all the other characters, but that is where the difficulty comes in.

Thought quotes aren't really necessary for any story. They're a matter of preference in both reading and writing, so if you're not comfortable with them, don't use 'em.

Here are some example of how approach variations could look. (Relying on Jack & Jill here -- good ol' standbys.
Richard's more informal name usually shows up as "thingy", which just looks weird: thingy and Jane. )

With thought quote:
Where is that noise coming from? Jack's gaze roamed the room, taking in the shabby furniture and littered floor, then upward to the ceiling.

Without thought quote:
Where was the noise coming from? Jack's gaze roamed the room, taking in the shabby furniture and littered floor, then upward to the ceiling.
(Note the changed verb tense and the shift from "that" to "the".)

Without the question:
The steady rasping seemed to come from everywhere. Jack's gaze roamed the room -- shabby furniture, littered floor -- then upward to the ceiling.
(The narrative voice opts for description here although it's still in Jack's POV.)

Telling what Jack is doing:
Jack looked around the room for the source of the noise. He saw the shabby furniture and littered floor, then he turned his eyes upward to the ceiling.
(This could be taken as omniscient depending on how the rest of the story is written. Note, however, that it also relies heavily on filter words, which translates as telling rather than showing. Filter words aren't necessarily taboo, but you'd better have a bloody good reason for any that show up in your writing.)

1st person for comparison:
A scarred table and cat-shredded chair sat amid newspapers and fast food sacks littering the floor. My skin prickled from the steady rasping. Nothing here could account for it. Then my gaze traveled overhead to the ceiling.
(This also provides more specific details in the room's description. See how much clearer this room is to visualize?)

Same as above but switched to 3rd:
A scarred table and cat-shredded chair sat amid newspapers and fast food sacks littering the floor. Jack's skin prickled from the steady rasping. Nothing here could account for it. Then his gaze traveled overhead to the ceiling.

Moving on.

As a technique, withholding the name identifying the character has a long-standing precedence and is still widely used. Have you ever read Conrad Aiken's "Silent Snow, Secret Snow"? The reader doesn't learn the MC's name (Paul Hasleman) until near the end of the first part of the story even though the narrative is very deep within that character's POV. Other characters are mentioned (Mother, Father, Miss Buell, Dierdre) in the first paragraph, but the only things we learn about them are those perceptions the MC has of them and how they relate to his conflict.

So, it's all right not to use a characters name in the narrative until moving them from the sidelines into a more important role, even though the POV character knows that character's name? That's exactly what I want to do, except the use of the name in the narrative is contingent upon the name being revealed to reader in dialog.

Sure.
Let's go a bit further into the last example I used to see how that could look.

A scarred table and cat-shredded chair sat amid newspapers and fast food sacks littering the floor. Jack's skin prickled from the steady rasping. Nothing here could account for it. Then his gaze traveled overhead to the ceiling.
Floorboards creaked, but there were no footsteps. Jack ignored it and stared upward, listening. The creaking stopped beside him, then a warm hand grasped his. The rasping continued, no louder than before but faster.
"You hear it?" he whispered. There was no reply and he glanced down.
Jill's blue eyes met his. Her blonde pigtails bobbed as she nodded.

Or if the side character's name needs to show up first in dialog:

...Floorboards creaked, but there were no footsteps. Jack ignored it and stared upward, listening. The creaking stopped beside him, then a warm hand grasped his. The rasping continued, no louder than before but faster.
"You hear it, Jill?" he whispered. No reply. He glanced down at her.
Her blue eyes met his and her blonde pigtails bobbed as she nodded.

Writing a scene in several variations helps work out the best approach to keep the story moving. Stay flexible. And remember, the first draft is just a draft. It'll go through a lot of revisions before it's done. ;D

[stormiel]

What kind of reaction do you want from your reader? Is there another character who can be the "midget" and narrate your main character's story?

[Bainespal]

Thanks for those examples, G.L. Very helpful.

Aug 4, 2013 3:35:20 GMT -5 stormiel said:

What kind of reaction do you want from your reader?

I want to write the Biblical fiction in a way slightly reminiscent of epic fantasy. So, I want to evoke a sense of grand scale.

Aug 4, 2013 3:35:20 GMT -5 stormiel said:

Is there another character who can be the "midget" and narrate your main character's story?

I don't think so. There are two important characters, but neither can narrate the other's story. First-person is too hard for multiple viewpoints and episodic, alternating scenes from two different plots.

[Kristen]

Bainespal, epic fantasy traditionally has been written from the omniscient POV, but it sounds to me as if you want an objective narrator.

The omniscient narrator knows everything and can share everyone's thoughts, but doesn't have to. He can also make value judgements about the characters and events of the story.

The limited narrator usually shares the thoughts of some, but not all, of the characters. He doesn't usually make value judgements.

The objective narrator is almost like a camera. He can record and relay the events, but doesn't make value judgements and doesn't share anyones thoughts.

Your "midget" sounds to me like the last of these.

The drawback to this kind of writing is that it puts psychic distance between the reader and the character. But it will let you do what you want, which is to describe the characters abstractly rather than specifically, e.g., "the old wizard" rather than "Gandalf."

The key to writing in this POV is to remember that you are telling the story through a narrator, so the techniques of Deep POV -- like characters' internal monologue -- are not available to you. If you choose to have your narrator share a thought, it would not be in the form of "what was that sound?" Instead it would be in the form of "Jack wondered what that sound was." Or "What was that sound, Jack thought."

However, this means you are also not limited by the techniques of Deep POV which would, for example, require you to identify a new character the way the POV character would think of him: "Gandalf walked in." You can refer to him however you'd like the narrator to: "The old wizard walked in."

One key to maintaining POV in this style is to remember that your protagonist is NOT the POV character. Your narrator is the POV -- well, not character, because he's not really a character in the story -- let's call him the POV persona.

in omniscient POV, and to a lesser extent in limited narrator POV, it's possible for the narrator to have a really distinct personality. Dickens did this in A Christmas Carol. That narrator is downright snarky. But I think you're going for an objective narrator: this will give the effect of watching a movie: sensory details without interior monologue.

[Bainespal]

Aug 12, 2013 17:04:18 GMT -5 Kristen said:

Bainespal, epic fantasy traditionally has been written from the omniscient POV, but it sounds to me as if you want an objective narrator.

I was thinking more of the modern epic fantasy style, Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson. They use third person, not very limited. I like the switching POVs, at least.

The omniscient narrator knows everything and can share everyone's thoughts, but doesn't have to. He can also make value judgements about the characters and events of the story.

The limited narrator usually shares the thoughts of some, but not all, of the characters. He doesn't usually make value judgements.

The objective narrator is almost like a camera. He can record and relay the events, but doesn't make value judgements and doesn't share anyones thoughts.

Your "midget" sounds to me like the last of these.

That's a very helpful description of different kinds of POV techniques. Thank you.

The objective narrator sounds like a little bit of a cross between the omniscient and the limited, maybe. At any rate, I don't think I could dream of experimenting with an unreliable narrator. Not that I would really want to, anyways.

[metalikhan]

Aug 13, 2013 20:32:56 GMT -5 Bainespal said:

The objective narrator sounds like a little bit of a cross between the omniscient and the limited, maybe. At any rate, I don't think I could dream of experimenting with an unreliable narrator. Not that I would really want to, anyways.

The unreliable narrator is what I used in "Sincerely, Simon" and keeping the narrative voice consistent was a major challenge! One of the hallmarks of an unreliable narrator is that the reader reaches different conclusions about what's happening than what the character is relating. In "Sincerely, Simon", however, there had to be the thread of truth about what he experienced, however distorted he perceived it. That was ultimately the reason for the lead-in and end piece from the doctor's POV (in 3rd person). Simon really did destroy vampire violets but his thought processes were so skewed, it was hard to tell what was "real" and what wasn't.

It's not really experimental writing, though -- not anymore. Faulkner used the technique, most notably in The Sound and The Fury (which opened in the POV of a 30-ish y.o. man with the mind of a 5 y.o.). James Joyce used it, too; Finnegan's Wake has shifting reliability although it's tough to discern with everything else going on in that work.

For most fiction, it is better to stick with the widely known narrative voice & POV techniques. There's simply more information about them, more examples about how to do them well, more folks able to critique/edit them knowledgeably, and more readers who prefer those familiar styles.

[Kessie]

Diana Wynne Jones's Hexwood uses unreliable narrators to weave a really awesome mystery. The characters are discovering their own backstory, more or less, and the reader discovers it along with them while yelling exclamations of surprise at the walls. (Kind of like what the first half of Dekker's Saint tried to do. Only Hexwood is less nasty.)

But that does it for unreliable narrators I like. Mostly I find them a gimmick to show off the author's cleverness.

[Kristen]

Aug 13, 2013 20:32:56 GMT -5 Bainespal said:

Aug 12, 2013 17:04:18 GMT -5 Kristen said:

Bainespal, epic fantasy traditionally has been written from the omniscient POV, but it sounds to me as if you want an objective narrator.

I was thinking more of the modern epic fantasy style, Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson. They use third person, not very limited. I like the switching POVs, at least.

I haven't read Jordan or Sanderson, so I'm not sure what POV they're using. Note that "third person" doesn't actually say anything about POV. It only describes what pronouns are being used (he/she). Which is why I really try not to bring "person" into discussions of POV.

A quick look at the opening of one of Sanderson's books leads me to believe he's using character POV, aka deep POV. This is when there is no narrator; the character essentially is the narrator. I highly recommend it, if it works for your story, because the reader engages more deeply when there's no narrator coming between them and the characters. But sometimes in epic stories with a cast of thousands it's more efficient to use a narrator.

Note also that the narrator POVs are almost always written in third person (rarely in second person), but character POV can be written in either third person or first.