Could clones have souls?

[Adam David Collings]

The way I see it, clones are usually portrayed as sentient beings, so yes, they would have souls. I remember an episode of Star Trek when the crew of the Enterprise were cloned without their consent. They were indignant at this and proceeded to kill all the clones. I was horrified at this because to me, this amounted to the crew of the Enterprise committing mass murder (though cloning someone without their consent would also seen unethical).

[Bethany J.]

Sept 28, 2013 19:18:36 GMT -5 metalikhan said:

Ummm -- except I've seen logical thinking & problem solving (not trained responses), creativity, love happen in animals. So many church people are unobservant and so very certain animals are soul-less.

I don't deny animals can think intelligently or be loving. Creativity? I didn't mean creative thinking; I meant artistic creativity. Have animals exhibited that? If so I'm ignorant...I don't spend much time around animals or even like them much, so this is an honest question.

I see no evidence that animals have souls, I do admit. If they have souls what separates us from them, spiritually? The Bible is clear that we are made in the image of God but says no such thing about animals. We are also given express permission to kill and eat animals - certainly God would not allow that if He knew animals were sentient beings with souls.

[Kristen]

I agree, Bethany. But I wonder about Dolphins, sometimes.

People have taught sone animals to play about with paint -- primates and elephants, mainly. But the paintings animals produce tend to be random. And I don't know of any animal that creates art in its natural environment. That is, without human intervention.

[metalikhan]

It's an understandable question, Bethany. Really, there's no definite answer either way and the only stance we can take on this side of heaven has to be a reasoned one.

The nutshell version of my own reason is based on very few scriptural references. Animals were placed under our dominion, but upon our rebellion in Eden, they, too, suffer under what we brought into the world. They don't require the blood of Christ to redeem their souls; we do. The emphasis of scripture is about restoring our relationship to God, not theirs.

The fear of man as well as God's permission to use them as a food source for us didn't happen until after the Flood. (BTW, this is the source people point to for all those back-to-Eden type diets nowadays). It makes me wonder if that's when a communication gulf between us and all those creatures under our dominion happened. I think most people look at Noah's ark in terms of a floating zoo, but the logistics of the ark is mind-boggling (coming from the perspective of someone who's worked in boarding kennels).

There are two verses, however literally or metaphorically anyone wants to take them, which indicate animals are capable of recognizing the presence of deity. Something that has no spirit would be blind to perceptions on the spiritual plane.

And then on the observational level, there are too many oddities to ignore, too many challenges to what we think we know about how animals think. The greater the intelligence, the more these anomalies show up in observation, but they also happen in those animals we rate as lower in intelligence.

Dogs are one of the most common companion animals, and while we can attribute a lot of things to instinct combined with intelligence and training, they still do plenty that can't be explained away easily. A sense of humor is one, even though it's not terribly sophisticated by our standards (leans more toward slapstick). Creative problem-solving including the use of "tools" is another. An example is the dog who, without training, pushes a chair from the dining room to the kitchen or who pulls drawers out to arrange steps so s/he can get something off the counter. Another is the dog who figures out the righty-tighty/lefty-loosey principle to unscrew a bottle cap, not by chewing it or licking at it but by grasping the cap and walking around the bottle.

Such things breach the gulf with actions we don't normally attribute to lower species. If we don't consider there may be a whole dimension to their being we can't access, it can be a little unnerving. Maybe a little humbling as well.

Then there's art. We can be pretty arrogant about what constitutes artistic creativity in our own species. Could we recognize in another species? I don't think so.

But again, oddities occur. The dog arranges toys, stands back, studies it, moves this toy an inch, turns another one to face a different direction (rinse, repeat) – huffs a sigh, wags tail and leaves the arrangement; comes back later and moves one toy closer to the other. Eventually, the arrangement satisfies and remains that way for the dog to look at and wag tail for several days until s/he's decides to play with the toys. (I've seen a cat do something similar.) More than instinct is at work, and since no training is involved, can we really assume there's no artistic drive being expressed simply because it doesn't conform to our concepts of art?

One of my hound girls enjoyed "singing" along when my husband played guitar or harmonica. But it went beyond simple howling. She moderated her volume according to tempo, added little trills at surprisingly appropriate times in the music – no training involved.

But what about other species? A rehabber has a 7 y.o. brain-damaged squirrel who shows musical preferences. Interesting thing: there's one Chopin piece he enjoys and "sings" along with, but the same piece by a different artist upsets him. Granted, maybe it could be attributed to recording quality, but it's happened even when the same producer simply recorded a different musician. (The squirrel also likes Vivaldi, Japanese shakuhachi, Moody Blues, doesn't like the Chieftains, Sousa or Tchaikovsky.)

Anyway, these are just a few reasons I think animals have spirits. It's an opinion, and IMO, it's not a salvational issue. Salvation is specifically for us – we're the ones who need it so very much.

[Bethany J.]

Hmm, this seems like it needs to become a new thread.

[stormiel]

Good discussion. I've always wondered about animals and souls. Two instances of talking animals in the Bible have always made me wonder as well. 1. Why didn't Eve freak out when the serpent was talking to her? I've always wondered if that was normal. 2. Balaam's donkey when the Lord opened its mouth and it asked why he beat it 3 times and “Am I not your own donkey, which you have always ridden, to this day? Have I been in the habit of doing this to you?”

I hope that animals have souls. Its not clearly stated in the Bible whether or not they do, but He does care for his creation. His care surpasses ours by far so I can take peace in knowing that.