Mist and Shadow (Vestraten, starting over)

[Joel P.]

We're restarting.

Well, not /really/ restarting, just sorta... yeah, ok, we're restarting. The novel was fast becoming directionless as it stood. That said, we had some great character development and worldbuilding stuff. Thus, we won't be scrapping everything, just setting it aside and restarting.

But first! We need to actually plot out the major milestones and figure out who our villain is (and his backstory). So, this is a call out to the original team: Kessie, Ranger Varon, and Stormiel (and rjj7 of course). Come back and help us brainstorm!

Let's start throwing out milestone ideas. First milestone is that, obviously, our two main-main characters need to meet and set out on some kind of quest vaguely related to the end goal of the plot (which is to kill the villain and stop him from messing with the mists). Next?

[stormiel]

So, before going into the plot. Who are your two main characters and what are they like? From earlier posts I assume they are Austi (that's probably spelled wrong) and Ada. Plot has to build from the characters or you end up with all action, no story. Or at least nothing someone wants to spend 300 pages reading.

By this time you probably have some idea of who they are as people. Since you are both writing, its important that you agree on who they are and the direction they are going.

How do they interact with each other?

What is their ultimate goal (as people, what do they both get out of it in the end/why do they care)?

Who is their enemy?

Why?

What is he like?

How do they know?

How do they know the villain is up to no good?

Why should they work together?

Why are your protagonist likable?

Why would a reader want to stick with them for 300 pages or more?

What is your vision for the story?

I think before helping you brainstorm the rest of us need to hear these answers.

Best of luck,

-Storm

[Kessie]

Who is the bad guy and what's he doing? I was just reading that all stories have to start with the villain.

[metalikhan]

Sept 28, 2013 10:53:02 GMT -5 Kessie said:

Who is the bad guy and what's he doing? I was just reading that all stories have to start with the villain.

That sounds like someone's personal preference being passed off as a "rule" for stories. It only matters if you're submitting a story where that's the publisher's preference. More places want to see the main conflict (not necessarily the same thing as the villain) presented early on, which gives a lot more latitude in a story's beginning.

[Kristen]

Yeah, I gotta agree with Glyda on that one. Any time someone says every story must have X, I cringe. This is an art form, not an erector set.

That said, knowing the villain's motivation is imprtant. But sometimes you get there by starting with the hero who wants Thing, and then you get villain who wants to destroy Thing, and then you ask why.

[rjj7]

stormiel: A lot of those questions are actually open to debate. However, you are quite right that y'all will need a bit more information to go on before you can meaningfully contribute. I'm including a quick breakdown of our main characters, including essential information (that can't change without completely rewriting the character; which is still an option) and non-essential (which can be expanded or axed without too much bother). I'll make a post about plot a bit later, if Joel doesn't get to it first.

After Joel comments on my comments, and includes everything I've overlooked, you should have a decently clear view of what we're working with. It will be interesting to see how Joel's view of the characters differs from my own.


Atsui:

Essentials:
He is a retired soldier who participated in a vast and bloody war. It was primarily a marine/naval style war that centered around a fragmenting island empire to the west of Vestraten (Joel's been assiduously updating the map in the Ecology & History thread).

Non-essentials:
- The war was mental-disorder-inducing bad. Atsui is certainly of sound mind, though he has mood swings and very occasional flash-backs (not necessarily true flash-backs; just memories that suddenly force their way to the front of his mind).
- Atsui is very observant with all his senses. Sort of like Sherlock Holmes without the (insane) deduction skills. Or the substance abuse.
- Atsui was an officer in the war. Currently, he tends to be self-effacing and does what he feels he ought to in a quiet and subdued, if determined, manner. But in moments of tension, when he sees a plan, the officer can slip out.

P.S. This is not intended to be a criticism, but I have to say that when I first saw his name, my first idea for the story was the following bit of dialogue:

"Atsui!"
"Bless you."




Ada:

Essentials:
She is a wizard-assassin wanted by the authorities of a couple nations (one, anyway).

Non-essentials:
- She was given parole and promise of pardon on condition she investigate the misuto-morsu, a phenomenon observed in the ocean mists that has several parties concerned (enter Plot)
- She uses a shortstaff; my mental image of it is something like a miniature quarterstaff that comes apart into more manageable pieces.
- Quick temper, though not the shout-in-your-face type, more a burning ember.
- Proud of her skill; but the most she can say about her profession is that it is a living more honest than some
- Not a very forward planner. Given a situation, she will react competently, but she is not one for long-term strategies.
- Sought out Astui for help, ostensibly as one of the few surviving acquaintances from the war, but more for his powers of strategy and observation.

I'm a bit hesitant to say even this much about her, as I never had a very clear picture of where she was going as a character (and I wonder why the story was starting to become directionless? :. Those are the two main characters from the draft, but the focus can certainly be shifted if warranted. I've been thinking a bit about having a second 'group' of characters in some other part of the country so that we can get multiple perspectives on what is going on, so it is possible that we will have more or different main characters anyway.



Egisto:

Essentials:
There is more to him and his wife than meets the eye. Keeps a strangely coloured cloak, a sword with hilt and blade melded seamlessly together, and a pouch of dust locked in a chest under his bed.

Non-essentials:
- Head-servant on Astui's farm (this is actually an essential role; the only question is whether the man with the strange cloak and sword belongs in it or whether we need someone else).
- Extraordinary sense of loyalty.
- Respectful of manner.
- Member of some organization that is still in the dark.



Merissa:

Essentials:
Egisto's wife

Non-essentials:
- A typical wife, suitable for an innkeeper, a cook, or a baker. Rigid views, protective of her kitchen, that whole bit.
- ... but it turns out that she's actually some pretty hot stuff in a fight herself; exits the story early on (when everyone goes traveling and she remains behind), but reenters it later similarly equipped to her husband.
- Not very clever, but sensible enough to realize it. Without guidance, she will do as she sees best in any given situation, but will not argue plans with someone she knows and respects, like Egisto or Astui. Will present iron will and obstinacy to someone she doesn't know or respect, like Ada.



Manascht:

Essentials:
A Seeker for the Hand of the Emperor (whatever that means; we hadn't fully explored that yet ;D So far it just entails that he is after Ada to question her)

Non-essentials:
- Breaks his own order's rules in pursuit of ends.



Torgarias:

Essentials:
An amateur philosopher and spiritual counselor; by which I mean he doesn't have a formal education in such matters. He's pretty sharp regardless.

Non-essentials:
- Cheerful and good-natured
- Impulsive; will say something without stopping to consider whether it is socially acceptable or not (it's not that he ignores social convention, it's that he forgets to think of them first). This mostly manifests itself in very personal questions that are quickly retracted when he remembers where he is.



That is the cast thus far. As for how they all fit together in the plot (if you can call it that ), well, we're willing to rewrite the plot as much as need be. So if you have any ideas based on this, don't wait to share them. All the previous discussion still stands. W/regard to the villain: I'm not sure that we have one yet. Beyond all the previous discussion, that is. The draft did nothing to advance this aspect of the story.

P.S. When we start writing again, everything will be going in the Sandbox, so y'all can keep up with it if you'd like to. I apologize for this rough attempt at re-inserting people into the process who have effectively been away from it for so long. Wouldn't blame anyone who wanted to tell us to go suck eggs.


EDIT: Regarding "All stories should start with the villain", I read that more as "All good story ideas need to have a villain moving them" as opposed to "the villain must appear in the first scene" or "the villain must be the absolute first thing you think of". And while I frequently assert that there is no rule in writing that cannot be broken (if you do it properly), I think it's a pretty sound general principle. Most books have the heroes reacting to someone else's plots. Knowing who that someone else is is pretty crucial.

[rjj7]

Well, I was going to just give the character update and leave it there for a bit, but I thought I'd try my hand at one of Stormiel's questions (thanks a lot for those, btw).

What is your vision for the story?

Joel will want to pitch in with his vision, since his is the one that counts. My personal preference, based on what we've discussed and what has happened, is something like what follows:

A former soldier is swept up in a quest that leads him to question whether the villain's plan is truly worse than the horrors it promises to end.

[stormiel]

Sounds like its moving forward. Have you guys considered using some of the same characteristics but replacing Ada with a male secondary protagonist?From what I've previously read it seems that idea might be more fitting with your story. Otherwise Ada seems awkward to the story, but its still possible to change that.

[Joel P.]

Sorry for taking so long to get back to this. But I'm here now.

Oct 1, 2013 16:21:03 GMT -5 rjj7 said:

Atsui:

Essentials:
He is a retired soldier who participated in a vast and bloody war. It was primarily a marine/naval style war that centered around a fragmenting island empire to the west of Vestraten (Joel's been assiduously updating the map in the Ecology & History thread).

Non-essentials:
- The war was mental-disorder-inducing bad. Atsui is certainly of sound mind, though he has mood swings and very occasional flash-backs (not necessarily true flash-backs; just memories that suddenly force their way to the front of his mind).
- Atsui is very observant with all his senses. Sort of like Sherlock Holmes without the (insane) deduction skills. Or the substance abuse.
- Atsui was an officer in the war. Currently, he tends to be self-effacing and does what he feels he ought to in a quiet and subdued, if determined, manner. But in moments of tension, when he sees a plan, the officer can slip out.

Quite accurate. You have a good grasp on the character. The only thing I would add is that he is concerned with appearances: despite the fact he doesn't believe in the Vestrateni theology of the Aspects, he maintains outward devotion.

Oct 1, 2013 16:21:03 GMT -5 rjj7 said:

Ada:

Essentials:
She is a wizard-assassin wanted by the authorities of a couple nations.

Non-essentials:
- She was given parole and promise of pardon on condition she investigate the misuto-morsu, a phenomenon observed in the ocean mists that has several parties concerned (enter Plot)
- She uses a shortstaff; my mental image of it is something like a miniature quarterstaff that comes apart into more manageable pieces.
- Quick temper, though not the shout-in-your-face type, more a burning ember.
- Proud of her skill; but the most she can say about her profession is that it is a living more honest than some
- Not a very forward planner. Given a situation, she will react competently, but she is not one for long-term strategies.
- Sought out Astui for help, ostensibly as one of the few surviving acquaintances from the war, but more for his powers of strategy and observation.

I'm a bit hesitant to say even this much about her, as I never had a very clear picture of where she was going as a character.

Actually, the shortstaff folds. It's a small detail, anyway. Good noticing the lack of planning skills.
She's there to provide several things: the inciting incident, a link to Atsui's past (since she and her mercenary group fought for Vestraten in the war), and a counterpoint to his consistently rational behavior.

Oct 6, 2013 6:10:19 GMT -5 stormiel said:

Sounds like its moving forward. Have you guys considered using some of the same characteristics but replacing Ada with a male secondary protagonist? From what I've previously read it seems that idea might be more fitting with your story. Otherwise Ada seems awkward to the story, but its still possible to change that.

Honestly, I don't agree with you at all, for several reasons. First off, I don't want this to be the stereotypical male-driven fantasy novel. Ada is a strong female character, and (I think) not in a cliched manner; meaning she's not an Amazon whose one weakness is true love. She's conflicted about her choice of work, motivated to save herself, and loyal to those she regards as skilled enough to warrant that loyalty, while also being a merciless killer (able to ignore her doubts about the job with ease, but she still allows herself to consider them at leisure-- which shows a strength of character, to me) and not at all interested in romance. Well, I shouldn't say 'not at all' as Randy and I are still up in the air about getting her involved with a certain secondary character.... but anyway.

Oct 1, 2013 16:21:03 GMT -5 rjj7 said:

Those are the two main characters from the draft, but the focus can certainly be shifted if warranted. I've been thinking a bit about having a second 'group' of characters in some other part of the country so that we can get multiple perspectives on what is going on, so it is possible that we will have more or different main characters anyway.

The second group idea is a good one, as I've said before. But you'll get the responsibility of starting that.

Oct 1, 2013 16:21:03 GMT -5 rjj7 said:

Egisto:

Essentials:
There is more to him and his wife than meets the eye. Keeps a strangely coloured cloak, a sword with hilt and blade melded seamlessly together, and a pouch of dust locked in a chest under his bed.

Non-essentials:
- Head-servant on Astui's farm (this is actually an essential role; the only question is whether the man with the strange cloak and sword belongs in it or whether we need someone else).
- Extraordinary sense of loyalty.
- Respectful of manner.
- Member of some organization that is still in the dark.

Actual, Egisto's not in an organization. His family was a long line of professional butlers, manservants and assassins (akin to the Butlers of Artemis Fowl fame). Egisto, his father, and his father's father have run from the violent legacy of their family, but the training has been maintained. (I told Randy this as an aside, but I think he forgot).

Oct 1, 2013 16:21:03 GMT -5 rjj7 said:

Merissa:

Essentials:
Egisto's wife

Non-essentials:
- A typical wife, suitable for an innkeeper, a cook, or a baker. Rigid views, protective of her kitchen, that whole bit.
- ... but it turns out that she's actually some pretty hot stuff in a fight herself; exits the story early on (when everyone goes traveling and she remains behind), but reenters it later similarly equipped to her husband.
- Not very clever, but sensible enough to realize it. Without guidance, she will do as she sees best in any given situation, but will not argue plans with someone she knows and respects, like Egisto or Astui. Will present iron will and obstinacy to someone she doesn't know or respect, like Ada.

She's probably a wizard of some kind. Just throwing that out there.

Oct 1, 2013 16:21:03 GMT -5 rjj7 said:

Manascht:

Essentials:
A Seeker for the Hand of the Emperor (whatever that means; we hadn't fully explored that yet ;D So far it just entails that he is after Ada to question her)

Non-essentials:
- Breaks his own order's rules in pursuit of ends.

I think of the Hand as being like a cross between the Spanish Inquisition and MI-5. Also, Manascht may have loyalty to a higher organization than the Hand, hence why he breaks the rules. More on that in a mo.

Oct 1, 2013 16:21:03 GMT -5 rjj7 said:

Torgaris:

Essentials:
An amateur philosopher and spiritual counselor; by which I mean he doesn't have a formal education in such matters. He's pretty sharp regardless.

Non-essentials:
- Cheerful and good-natured
- Impulsive; will say something without stopping to consider whether it is socially acceptable or not (it's not that he ignores social convention, it's that he forgets to think of them first). This mostly manifests itself in very personal questions that are quickly retracted when he remembers where he is.

Yep. That's about it. I think Torgaris is our only flat character.

Oct 1, 2013 16:21:03 GMT -5 rjj7 said:

That is the cast thus far. As for how they all fit together in the plot (if you can call it that ), well, we're willing to rewrite the plot as much as need be. So if you have any ideas based on this, don't wait to share them. All the previous discussion still stands. W/regard to the villain: I'm not sure that we have one yet. Beyond all the previous discussion, that is. The draft did nothing to advance this aspect of the story.

EDIT: Regarding "All stories should start with the villain", I read that more as "All good story ideas need to have a villain moving them" as opposed to "the villain must appear in the first scene" or "the villain must be the absolute first thing you think of". And while I frequently assert that there is no rule in writing that cannot be broken (if you do it properly), I think it's a pretty sound general principle. Most books have the heroes reacting to someone else's plots. Knowing who that someone else is is pretty crucial.

Yes, and yes.

Okay, now for my contribution (good Lord this post is getting long XP)

During my stuck time while I was trying to figure out why we were directionless, I paid a lot of attention to the greater world-structure which this world is a part of. What I came up with will lend the following to the story:

Wizards, though still limited by discipline/element, use freemagic to perform their feats. The Dyaemrven (extinct on this world) created a device which condensed the resident freemagic into mists with an affinity for water. This was done as a rude defense against:

CORRUPTION. Essentially a natural force which has been harnessed by the Enemy (who is now known simply as Corruption) and is used thereby to enslave worlds. The Dyaemrven (first of the High races) are leading the war against Corruption (though they're almost extinct on this world. Manascht's theoretical 'higher loyalty'?). Corruption is driving our villain to twist the mists and use them to consume lifemagic (the life force of living beings, what Corruption lives on).

All the rest of the details I've added are in the attached doc. The other worlds aren't our concern, just the world on which Vestraten is situated (hesitantly named Sielanek). I would love lots of input and criticism.

*awaits the possibly impending explosion*

[stormiel]

A while back you guys mentioned posting the story to the sandbox, but I forgot both my username and password so I haven't been there in a while. Above you mentioned an attached doc, but I didn't see anything. So without reading it, I'm more or less making an educated guess about the characters.

With Ada that does make more sense. I really like the fact that she is going to be a strong character. I am confused about her temper though. So far she's been described as quick tempered but also a slow burn? Is it a slow burn type temper that builds up until she suddenly explodes on someone? I'm lost on that one. I'm also confused by how she chooses to be loyal to someone, from what you are saying she is loyal to a person based on their skill right? What other factors contribute to that loyalty? Is she supposed to be a likable character or not so much?

Sorry for so many questions.

[Joel P.]

Oct 7, 2013 2:24:00 GMT -5 stormiel said:

A while back you guys mentioned posting the story to the sandbox, but I forgot both my username and password so I haven't been there in a while. Above you mentioned an attached doc, but I didn't see anything. So without reading it, I'm more or less making an educated guess about the characters.

Yes, that'll be for the next run-through. I thought I'd attached the doc on the last post; apparently I didn't. XP It's here now, but it contains worldbuilding details, not character details.

Oct 7, 2013 2:24:00 GMT -5 stormiel said:

With Ada that does make more sense. I really like the fact that she is going to be a strong character. I am confused about her temper though. So far she's been described as quick tempered but also a slow burn? Is it a slow burn type temper that builds up until she suddenly explodes on someone? I'm lost on that one. I'm also confused by how she chooses to be loyal to someone, from what you are saying she is loyal to a person based on their skill right? What other factors contribute to that loyalty? Is she supposed to be a likable character or not so much?

Sorry for so many questions.

No need to apologize, we like questions!

Honestly, I'm not sure about her temper. That showed up in Randy's sections more than mine, but I think you might be right-- it builds up slowly 'til she loses it. Randy, thoughts?

As for loyalty, it's a bit hard for me to put into words. Essentially, she doesn't want to have to take care of helpless people; but if you're competent, your goals align, and she has no great reason to betray you, she'll stand with you. Also, if she owes you a debt (which she does Atsui, more than likely), she'll be even more likely to stick with you.

Attachments:

[rjj7]

*coughs*

I haven't been gone. I've been standing at your shoulder the whole time. You just didn't notice me.


So... pretending that there hasn't been a huge gap in time...

Wizards, though still limited by discipline/element, use freemagic to perform their feats. The Dyaemrven (extinct on this world) created a device which condensed the resident freemagic into mists with an affinity for water. This was done as a rude defense against:

CORRUPTION. Essentially a natural force which has been harnessed by the Enemy (who is now known simply as Corruption) and is used thereby to enslave worlds. The Dyaemrven (first of the High races) are leading the war against Corruption (though they're almost extinct on this world. Manascht's theoretical 'higher loyalty'?). Corruption is driving our villain to twist the mists and use them to consume lifemagic (the life force of living beings, what Corruption lives on).

(*also: attached file*)

Goodness, I'm sorry I missed this! I really like the conception, though I have a few questions.

1) From the attached document, it appears as though all the high races are familiar with and can travel across the planes. If so, why are the technology levels not the same across all planes? (is it that most methods of planar travel were closed long ago to prevent CORRUPTION from getting between? Quarantine, in essence?)

2) Are the races currently 'unified' in the sense of each race being a faction? Or is each race as divided as humans are in our world?

3) Could you give a run-down of which characters are which race? (I apologize for asking, but this bit of information just will not stick, and I'm not on my computer with the old Vestraten files ).

4) So our villain is primarily motivated by subtle mental suggestion? Or did you want it more of a demonic possession? Perhaps we could have a bit of both: originally our villain was pursuing his own goals, but as he fell to darkness, he became more and more susceptible, till finally CORRUPTION entered in and now has almost complete control. This would allow us to throw the possibility of 'saving' the villain into the mix, much like Smeagol in LotR. Even if we decide, between ourselves, that the villain is too far gone and will not be redeemed, we don't have to tell the characters that.


Random ideas:
A) Perhaps the portals in this world to other planes were (nearly) all over water (perhaps this plane has a higher ocean content); the Dyaemrven created the mists to block the portals, preventing CORRUPTION from entering. Perhaps freemagic is toxic to CORRUPTION, while lifemagic is sustenance. Perhaps this is why necromancy leaves one open to CORRUPTION; using lifemagic instead of freemagic is an open invitation

B) Perhaps the Dyaemrven created a machine that 'regulates' the consistency of the mists; too thin, and CORRUPTION can get through. Too thick, and you end up with purple-people-eaters. The villain has discovered the machine and is tinkering with the settings. CORRUPTION is trying to destroy people's faith in freemagic and drive them to lifemagic instead; after which, he can then dissipate the mists, and enter a world where he has already possessed large numbers of people (as opposed to just dissipating the mists and trying to conquer the world from scratch).

C) Perhaps the Dyaemrven destroyed the portals and dispersed the free-magic into a difficult-to-use form (mists) so that it couldn't be used to reopen them? And the villain is trying to condense the mists so that the magic is easier to access in order to reopen access to this world? [this would potentially open up well for sequels; as people learn how to use mist-magic, then opening portals to other planes would become easier, with or without condensation]


Thoughts?

P.S. Thanks for the character clarifications. I'll have a few things to say about characters, but I'd like to get some plot stuff knocked out first.

[Joel P.]

To answer your questions:

1) That's a misconception which my fuzzy writing has fostered. XP In a word... No. The Dyaemrven alone of all the races have a semi-homogenous culture. They and those allied with them have tried to avoid interfering with less-developed cultures. And no, Corruption (no need for all caps) spreads like mold. It's not actually... sentient. Really... well. That's up for debate.

2) again, No. In the higher worlds (Talron and up) they are all mostly informed and united; but for the most part, they behave as races on Earth do.

3) We didn't really decide this one... most of our characters are Pallidasian (Vestraten is something like 85% Pallidasian). Egisto has some Dyaemrven blood in him (key to a minor plot idea I had about him), but other than that I haven't paid it much thought.

4) interesting idea. Corruption, when it's invited in, doesn't necessarily 'take over', though; it's more like it's constantly informing his thoughts. The villain's evil is still the primary control.

A) Neat idea about the freemagic/lifemagic dichotomy. Though, I had worked out a mechanism by which they were linked... *ponders* I think we can make that work. As I explained, though, Corruption spreads like mold, not like a plant.

B) and C) I don't like as much.


Where are we, now?

[rjj7]

I would say, at a guess, that you are metaphorically stranded on an island as the companion of a flighty, maladjusted nincompoop prone to vanishing weeks at a time. Does that check with you?

While this need not translate into the book, I happen to like calling the villain CORRUPTION in our planning. The way I see it, corruption as a mindless force: Corruption. Villain that has harnessed Corruption for his own ends: CORRUPTION. Corruption is the force, CORRUPTION is the guy. I concede that using all-caps inside a book is a questionable practice, though it can be used for great hilarity. Like in The Wheel of Time Summaries, by ISAM. Beginning of the sixth book, Lord of Chaos. I find their escapades with the Dark One's "amp" hilarious; the high point of the parody, in fact. But no, I wasn't planning on pushing CORRUPTION as his final title.

For my part, I'm just wishing to nail down precisely what our villain is doing before moving on and acknowledging your points about the characters. This is rendered a little more complex, as we have to figure out not only what our villain is doing, but what CORRUPTION is doing to corrupt using Corruption (did I mention that your use of corruption as a thing was a stroke of genius? Careful, or your next stroke may prove fatal).

You mentioned you had thought of a link between free-magic and life-magic. What were you thinking there?

[Joel P.]

Not a nincompoop, but otherwise, yes. XD

I think we should name the blasted villain and be done with it. But I can't think of a suitable name.

(I LOL'd so hard at those summaries. If it really was RJ writing those, I suddenly have a lot more respect for his sense of humor)

The villain's goal is to give Corruption enough fuel that it can consume Sielanek (the world in which we're writing), and he thinks he'll be in charge at that point. But really, what's the point of ruling a dead world? I suppose that's where the constant mental control comes in.

Oops, did I leave that in there? I was mixed up. I don't have a link between them.