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Angels
May 9, 2008 10:46:34 GMT -5
Post by Teskas on May 9, 2008 10:46:34 GMT -5
Not long ago, I was listening to a lecture given by an orthodox rabbi on the subject of angels. The content of his comments was remarkably similar to medieval commentaries that I have read on the same subject. There were some differences, of course, but overall the similarities were striking. It made me wonder whether the medieval schoolmen drew their ideas from contemporary rabbinical material which appeared in various schules in Europe. Did the Christians attend these lectures, or did the rabbis attend Christian lectures?
Anyway, what struck me was a statement he made. Unlike humans, angels did not need a sense of purpose. They went on missions, but didn't need a sense of mission the way human beings do. Angels were pretty steady and unaffected by the missions they went on. They'd go on the mission, to be sure, but it was no big deal to them one way or another.
Then he commented that this was not the same thing as saying angels were not affected by experiences. "Angels can die from the ecstacy of being in the Divine Presence."
That really got me. I had always thought of angels as immortal, but then when I tried to remember where it said in the Bible that angels were immortal I couldn't find a reference. So here's a question.
Do you think angels could die from ecstacy as the rabbi asserted?
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Angels
May 9, 2008 11:15:14 GMT -5
Post by torainfor on May 9, 2008 11:15:14 GMT -5
If you consider death as "separated from God," then how could being in the presence of God make you so ecstatic that you then become separated from Him?
God is outside of time. I assume angels are, as well (except on their excursions to Earth). But are they outside of place? I always wondered why God granted Satan an audience in Job. Why would He want to be anywhere near him? But if they were outside of place, that would make more sense, I suppose.
If that were true, an angel being "separated from God" wouldn't be so in the physical, geographical sense. If one is outside of time or place, it could only be in the spiritual sense. I don't see how being ecstatic in the presence of God would lead one to spiritually reject Him.
And now I'm dizzy.
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Angels
May 9, 2008 11:40:12 GMT -5
Post by Teskas on May 9, 2008 11:40:12 GMT -5
Well, I wouldn't say death separates from God.
Saint Paul says "For I am persuaded that neither death nor life....shall be able to separate us from the love of God". (Romans 8:38-39)
Unless you are saying that angels allowing themselves to become so overcome by the ecstatic experience inducing death is itself a sin. That's an interesting line of thought.
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Angels
May 9, 2008 13:22:42 GMT -5
Post by Divides the Waters on May 9, 2008 13:22:42 GMT -5
I think he's talking about a more physical death, though. A cat hit on the road isn't "separated from God." It's dead. Without bringing up the notion of animals having spirits or angels having bodies, I daresay that since these beings are on a completely different plane of existence (one that interacts with, but does not depend on, the physical plane), anything beyond firsthand evidence falls under the category of complete speculation.
Just for the record, I'd hate to have to diagram that last sentence. Sorry.
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Angels
May 10, 2008 23:05:00 GMT -5
Post by scintor on May 10, 2008 23:05:00 GMT -5
Christian and Rabinical scholors studied and debated each other all the time in antiquity. In fact if you go back far enough, they are just two branches of the same set of studies, as Christian scholorship grew directly out of the Jewish tradition. This is, in fact, where you get a lot of the extra-Biblical ideas and legends that have crept into Christianity over the years. I would find it quite likely in the example that you gave the the Rabinical scource is the original one.
Scincerely,
Scintor@aol.com
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Angels
May 11, 2008 16:24:08 GMT -5
Post by The Blue Collared Philosopher on May 11, 2008 16:24:08 GMT -5
Hm, this interests me. I have never thought of angels as immortal. I however do not think that death to them would be the same as death to us. I think the only death that they will ever have is the death of being sent to the lake of fire.
Also, I don't believe that angels are out of time. To be honest, I think that is one of the attributes that only God has, why would angels need to be out of time? And just a thought, but if angels were out of time, when Satan is thrown into the lake of fire, if he were out of time, what pain or suffering would he feel? I mean if he's out of time, his suffering could possibly feel like it only lasts a moment (or what we know as a moment) because he is not constricted to this moment.
Now, back to the original question. If angels died from the ecstasy of being in the presence of God, there would be no angels left! How could you, in your right mind, not be overjoyed about being in God's presence!? Don't the angels sing for God? Don't they praise Him with all of their strength? I would think it would be backwards, the angel who is not ecstatic in God's presence will die (not that moment but in the lake of fire). I get ecstatic just thinking about being in His presence!
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Angels
Dec 9, 2008 16:22:38 GMT -5
Post by seraphim on Dec 9, 2008 16:22:38 GMT -5
Speaking of singing angels, here is an old Eastern Orthodox tale
From an ancient Patericon With the Sign of the Cross, the old monk Abba Joseph trapped in his cell a dark and miserable demon who had come to tempt him. "Release me, Father, and let me go," pleaded the demon, "I will not come to tempt you again". "I will gladly do that, but on one condition," replied the monk. "You must sing for me the song that you sang before God's Throne on high, before your fall."
The demon responded, "You know I cannot do that; it will cause me cruel torture and suffering. And besides, Father, no human ear can hear its ineffable sweetness and live, for you will surely die." "Then you will have to remain here in my cell," said the monk, "and bear with me the full struggle of repentance." "Let me go, do not force me to suffer," pleaded the demon." "Ah, but then you must sing to me the song you sang on high before your fall with Satan."
So the dark and miserable demon, seeing that there was no way out, began to sing, haltingly, barely audible at first, groping for words long forgotten. As he sang, the darkness which penetrated and surrounded him began slowly to dissipate. The song grew ever louder and increasingly stronger, and soon the demon was caught up in its sweetness, his voice fully lifted up in worship and praise. Boldly he sang of the power and the honour and the glory of the Triune God on High, Creator of the Universe, Master of Heaven and Earth, of all things visibleand invisible. As the song sung on high before all ages resounded in the fullness of its might, a wondrous and glorious light penetrated the venerable Abba's humble cell, and the walls which had enclosed it were no more. Ineffable love and joy surged into the very depths of the being of the radiant and glorious angel, as he ever so gently stooped down and covered with his wings the lifeless body of the old hermit who had liberated him from the abyss of hell.
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Angels
Dec 31, 2008 17:05:10 GMT -5
Post by Teskas on Dec 31, 2008 17:05:10 GMT -5
What a nice tale. I've sometimes wondered whether the fallen angels ever had second thoughts about their choice, and whether repentance for them was possible.
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Angels
Dec 31, 2008 19:26:44 GMT -5
Post by seraphim on Dec 31, 2008 19:26:44 GMT -5
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Angels
Jan 5, 2009 16:37:18 GMT -5
Post by dizzyjam on Jan 5, 2009 16:37:18 GMT -5
I think the death in the ecstasy of God alludes to where the Bible says, "Who can stand in the presence of God?" Also when the guards came to get Jesus, the presence of God was on Him so strong they fell "as if dead". Whether death to the angels is the same as death to us isn't a question we should ask. Death is death no matter what. The essence of what you are ceases. In this world it's our physical body, in the spiritual it is our spirit and our soul. Remember, "Don't fear they that can destroy the flesh but rather He that can destroy both body and soul." Once you're gone, you're gone. And if Satan has an eternal death and God lives in eternity outside of time, then in essence Satan could be placed outside of time and be destroyed there with what remains of his essence being thrown into the Lake of Fire to be burned for all eternity. And who said the Lake of Fire wasn't outside of time?
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