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Post by Teskas on Jun 7, 2008 17:45:02 GMT -5
There was a long thread about this elsewhere, with a lot of contributions, but I can't find it. So I'm opening this area to reply to an observation to something I said in "We've Finally Invited Jesus into Our Church." I waggishly posed the question: But getting back to the more significant point, who says just because you invite Jesus into your church, that He is going to take up the offer? This was the response: As for your question, I believe that Jesus does promise us that if we seek Him we will find Him, that He is wherever two or three of us are in agreement in His name, and many other similar things that lead me to believe He would, indeed, take up the offer. Correction: He does take up the offer each time that we do invite Him into our churches, or any other gathering or event or location. I was being a little playful when I asked my question, though, there was a serious meaning I had behind it. There is a populist notion of salvation which goes something like this: "You need only say the Sinner's Prayer and you are saved. No matter what you do afterwards, you're saved." Well, personally I think if one says the Sinner's Prayer sincerely, yes, a person is saved. But this makes no room for the possibility of apostasy. What is meant by sincerity? I think people can be impressed by a preacher and say the Sinner's Prayer, and really mean it. They can point to the day and the hour when they were saved. But within five minutes--or five years--of leaving that meeting, and the moment of their salvation, they can abandon its overriding condition, which is, repentance. I do not believe people who say "I am a Christian, I am saved" and continue without a moment's thought to persist in an unchristian lifestyle. They dress immodestly, they commit sexual immorality, they watch indecent programs, they cheat on their income taxes, they pilfer their boss's office supplies, they lie and dissemble, they're stingy with their money, they're hateful toward their family. I could go on. The walk with God does make demands on the believer. We are warned by Christ Himself, "Not all who say 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Matt 7:21) Sure we can falter along the way, but it is the desire--and the effort--to do right, the willingness to abandon any other path but Christ, which is the mark of the disciple, and not the diary entry in the back of a person's Bible. I believe this is scriptural. I am not claiming works gain us eternal life. That is a dreadful heresy, and denies the work of Christ. But our works are the outward sign of our repentance. And repentance is a condition for receiving (and I believe keeping) the gift of salvation. "From that time on Jesus began to preach, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near.' "(Matt 4:17) So, that's why I wrote that just because Jesus is invited ("paid lip service") doesn't mean He will turn up.
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Post by mongoose on Jun 7, 2008 22:05:05 GMT -5
There is an idea in the churches I grew up in and currently minister in, that God either "Shows up" to a service, or doesn't. If He doesn't show up in the sense of us being able to "sense" His presence, it is assumed that we did something wrong, and the service is said to have been "dead." I think all of that is bogus.
Maybe the condition is sincerity. Maybe it's repentance. I, for one, do not know just what the condition is for God "Showing up," but I do know that whenever I call upon Him I find that He is already there, ready and willing to help me, or just to hang out. That and I believe that the Word of God and church tradition indicates that God does not come and go from any geographical location based upon any condition of the people therein. Rather, He is always there, everywhere. He is omni-present. So whether or not we think God "showed up" to a particular event depends more on whether we were paying attention to what he was doing in that particular place and time, than it does on whether or not He was actually there.
It isn't a practical difference, but we are discussing philosophy here, I think, which asks questions not so much about how things are, as about how we think about and perceive them.
Again, I don't know what is proper doctrine, and I can't show how the Bible establishes this or that. I only know what I've heard, vs. what I've experienced and what makes sense to me.
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Post by Divides the Waters on Jun 8, 2008 13:16:46 GMT -5
Teskas,
As my father once said (perhaps quoting someone else), "You don't moo in order to become a cow. You moo because you're a cow."
There's a difference between expecting our good works to save us, and neglecting to do them because they won't. Christ said that we would know his followers by their fruits. I think in this permissive society, we have forgotten what it means to honor our father and mother (in both a literal and figurative sense), and what it is to obey our Creator and Savior. There are many posers out there who will never see God's grace, but there are also many adopted sons and daughters who have refused to adopt their new heritage. What should be a natural outpouring of who we are in Christ becomes instead a philosophical debate, a question of drudgery, rather than one of simple obedience.
I remember one young man, a roommate of mine, who was refusing to get baptised because he wanted to make a point (he didn't believe it was necessary for salvation). He was wanting to be a minister. To me, this was quite a statement for a young minister to make: In order to make a point about his personal doctrine, he was willing to disobey a direct statement from Christ Himself. It's not about whether someone is necessary for salvation or not; it's about whether you are going to be a disobedient son or daughter. When you start making stands like that, you've set your foundation in yourself, and not in Christ.
The sincerity issue is clearly a relevant one, as we expect our experiences with inviting Christ into our lives to be life-changing! Now, does this mean that we will not struggle with our same old problems? It would be nice, but clearly that's not the case. Rather, it's a daily battle to remember who we are, rather than who we were.
Or, as a character in my novel put it, "Are you willing to give up who you are in order to become the person you were meant to be?"
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Post by Christian Soldier on Jun 8, 2008 15:56:48 GMT -5
Well put! I think we all have to remember that not all good looking fruit is actually good. I grew up with a lot of that. Young men and women who seemed very sincere and fruitful, but had no real relationship with Christ. You could say that there was plenty of fruit, but the tree was small and brittle, and the fruit itself looked good but wasn't.
I think, though, that we've all been guilty of doing that: doing something because it was the "Christian" thing to do rather than because Christ wants us to do it. I pray that God would help me with that.
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Post by mongoose on Jun 8, 2008 20:41:19 GMT -5
I praise God that He has grace for us, to cover our sin of "posing," all the times we are in-sincere, or act the part because it's expected. After all, the kid tries to walk around in his daddy's shoes. Nothing wrong with that. Maybe you've heard the phrase "fake it till you make it?" Or in more Biblical terms, "life and death are in the power of the tongue," and "Whatever you ask in my name, without doubting, it will be done for you." Things like that. We try to be the way we believe we're supposed to, and God honors that obedient effort. He doesn't hold our failings against us, as long as we repent and continue to pursue Him. And those who seek Him will find Him, when they seek Him with all their hearts.
So there may be posers out there, and I'm very sorry that so many people have encountered so many of them. I guess I've been around a lot of people who were not only trying to look spiritual, but were truly trying to be spiritual. Perhaps they never heard from God, as far as they knew. Perhaps they were living in various kinds of sins, or were just really dense. But they weren't trying to deceive anyone concerning their spirituality. Rather, they figured, "The Bible tells me to do X to glorify God. I don't feel like it, and He's not telling me to in my Spirit, but the Bible says to do it, and my pastor says to do it, so I'll do it." Or was I the only one who spent many years in that condition before God starting leading me to do it moment by moment?
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Post by torainfor on Jun 10, 2008 1:40:29 GMT -5
My husband is taking a course on ethics, and this very thing came up. A co-worker, who is also Christian, posted a response to a question on the relationship between character and ethics. He mentioned a formula that I had heard from the pulpit--by a former Army chaplain.
Basically, his discussion was on the difference between doing good things and being a good person who acts out of that. And his "formula" was that if a person makes a conscious decision to do good things, that will ingrain itself into their character. They will become a "good person." And every action they take will have that as its foundation.
I think it's a corollary of becoming what you are exposed to. Maybe this is your "hand" exposing your "heart" to good things.
Here's a semi-related question: where does sincerity come into play? In some part of this process, you'll be doing an action without sincerity. You'll obey because you're supposed to, not because you want to.
For you, as long as you don't succumb to bitterness, I suppose it's a good thing--you're learning discipline.
But, here's the real question: where does the sincerity of an elder come into play? If you have a father (hypothetical example, here) who teaches you to love all mankind, but he was raised racist and still holds some of those beliefs--but he rarely, if ever, shows it--where do you come out? Is it better to be raised by someone who sets a good, but hypocritical, example or someone who's a sincere sinner?
(For me, I think it's the hypocrit. But I can be dense as a post when it comes to people's true motivations.)
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Post by mongoose on Jun 10, 2008 19:03:03 GMT -5
If anyone claims to know another person's motivations, they're either lying, using witchcraft, God told them the person's motivations, or the person told them their motivations. Otherwise, no amount of reason, or knowing a person, or having a feeling about it will inform us of their motives with any reliability. We simply can't truly know. So you're not alone in that regard, torainfor. *grins*
Jesus told a parable about a father who asked son #1 to go plow a field, or something. The son said "No, I won't do it." So the Father asked son #2 to go and plow the field, or whatever. that son said, "Yes, I will do it." The first son changed his mind and went and plowed the field. The second son forgot his word, and did something else. Which son, Jesus asked, will the father appreciate more that night?
Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart. Call the heart, faith. Faith without works is dead. Works arise out of faith. It just happens. So, if we want to do it, we eventually will. And if we don't want to do it, but realize we should, we can ask God to put a desire to do it into our hearts. He's real good about answering those kinds of prayers *chuckle* So it may well begin with our intent, and God can and will honor us for trying, but it won't have much effect on the Kingdom of God. The world doesn't care how hard you try, or how much you want something, unless you actually get it or achieve it. So if your desire pushes you into effective action, you may be rewarded by people. If it doesn't, you may still be rewarded by God. Still, God values obedience, and I believe, based on my experience, that he rewards it whether or not we feel like it.
This is contrary to the phrase I hear often, "God loves a cheerful giver." Does he hate the grudging giver? He instructs us not to take from the grudging giver, because the grudging giver will resent us for taking what was offered. But would it be true to say that we should not give if we find we're not sincere? I think that is not true, although it's clear that a lot of people have adopted that philosophy. If we just did what the Bible told us to, whether we felt like it or not, we'd find our selves feeling like it a lot more often. The worship services would be far more hopping. The tithe plates would be overflowing, and the churches secure and expanding financially. Evangelism teams would grow and go farther afield. People would no longer be left on the street, hungry and cold. Prisoners and those in the hospital would receive ministry. And many of the people contributing to these things wouldn't enjoy it at first, but they would learn the benefits God offers us when we serve and give of our selves.
Practical example: At work we teach clients to dress one step up from what's expected on the jobs for which they're applying. They might not feel like it. So one day I put on grungy clothes. I found that I didn't feel like going to work. I trudged in anyway, and began to teach. I was boring, almost putting myself to sleep. I finished my part of the class, went out and changed into my professional/dress outfit, and came in ready to work and help people, enthused and full of energy and motivation. Changing clothes also changed my attitude. It surprised me, but proved to me the point that if we want to make it, and we fake it in the meantime, we'll truly make it that much sooner. If I don't feel like lifting my hands in worship, but know God wants me to, and do so, I will find myself worshiping. If I don't want to give up money, but know God wants me to, and I do so, I will be blessed as He promised for my giving, and I'll realize that it's more blessed to give than to receive. If I don't like being around a group of people (whether on ethnic, social, economic, or other grounds) but know God wants me to minister to them, and I obey, I will find a love for them growing in my heart. It's just the way I've found it to work.
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