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Post by torainfor on Dec 20, 2008 11:07:56 GMT -5
Meh. He's just saying he doesn't like preachy.
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Post by Teskas on Dec 20, 2008 12:21:28 GMT -5
Be fair, Seraphim is saying more than that.
I'm with Seraphim. I want to write quality literature which is compelling to read, and shines like a lamp in the darkness, whether it quotes Scripture or not. There is no such thing as cheap grace. Poor quality Christian fiction is about as attractive as a pantry overrun by silverfish.
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Post by Divides the Waters on Dec 20, 2008 12:40:31 GMT -5
But in the days of O'Connor, you didn't have editors not even willing to read past hints of sensuality or violence (regardless of the context they might be put into later in the story). Face it; while the writers (and some readers) of Christian fiction have tried not to waver in their conviction to tell a powerful story, most editors have been wimpified, or are at least hypersensitive to content as it pertains to plot. I won't say that literary Christian fiction doesn't sell, because that's clearly not the case. But all publishers have to do is look at the numbers of some non-offensive pabulum to see what's really bringing in the bucks, and if the more literary stuff that takes a little more depth and effort on the part of the reader doesn't match that formula....
*shrug*
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Post by dizzyjam on Dec 20, 2008 17:24:28 GMT -5
Since this is "Where the Map Ends", let's get real here. I'm a huge Stephen King fan and I like Dean Koontz as well. So when guys like Frank Peretti and Ted Dekker are out there writing similar fiction with a Christian undertone in some and blatantness in others without being "in your face" about it, then I think Christian fiction is taking the step in the right direction. Although I've read a couple of Grisham novels and found them fast reading, it in no way caused me to pick up Robert Whitlow's "The List" or anything else by him. There may be some really good writers out there that are getting published (and even becoming best sellers), but if it's not spec-fic then, in my humble opinion, it doesn't count since this discussion is taking place in this forum. (Not that Whitlow had been brought up, but just follow me here) My problem with people that talk about writing a "literary masterpiece" and stuff is that it usually doesn't sound like spec-fic. Spec-fic, for some reason, as we all here should know, is so looked down upon by those that turn there nose up at anything that goes "out of the norm". So when I hear (or read) people in this forum talking the same way as those snubbers out there it sort of rankles me a bit. Maybe you don't even like the authors I mentioned, but you got to admit they must know something since they've become the best sellers that they are, eh? So, I'll probably need to start another thread, but instead of having the attitude of writing such a literary masterpiece that people for decades and maybe even centuries (if the Lord tarries) would look back on your work and say "ah-hah!" because of the shear genius of the writing, why don't we relax into the same gift we each have and focus more on creating best-selling fiction that's in the spec realm and involves our faith. By getting more of those out, we can let those in the future decide which ones of us were the geniuses and which ones aren't. If we aren't published (like I'm not right now) then they'll never know. So, whether we've published one book, no books or more than a dozen books, let's keep pumping them out and flood the market with so many of these that they just HAVE to put us on the shelf and people will just HAVE to notice that extra book and pick it up, and whether they're Believer's or not, they'll WIND UP reading a good Christian book that just might get them to recommend it to someone else, and who knows? Maybe some of you that are more literate than others will one day wind up in front of one your modern author heroes and get a letter of congratulations in the mail. You never can tell. Anything can happen. And of course, if Jeff keeps MLP pumping out the excellent stories like what just came out, then we are definitely heading in the right direction. Now if we could just get some excellent advertising going to let more people know about MLP and the other books published. Might be worth each of us taking a course in marketing to make sure our published works sell. Of course, I'm learning marketing in my Network Marketing group, so I've got myself covered with some ideas I have for my work when I get finished and seek publication. I hope you do too or will seek it out for your own.
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Post by metalikhan on Dec 21, 2008 2:01:14 GMT -5
Aside from the topic: I think the story itself influences its stylistic presentation, whether it's written formally in high diction or informally in low diction. Even the characters exert an influence on the style — "Simon" wouldn't work as well if he sounded like a PhD in English. Another short story I wrote (The Bravest Fell) is in formal, heroic, and sometimes archaic diction; and I controlled the pace of the story by first writing it as poetry then physically reshaping it as prose. Both are, however loosely, spec fiction. Great Literature? — doubtful, although fashions change, so who knows what future generations might laud as great lit.
Ultimately, we write for God. This is just a wild guess, but I think He likes a variety of styles.
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Post by Jeff Gerke on Dec 22, 2008 8:41:00 GMT -5
Thanks for the great conversation and the words of encouragement, you guys!
Jeff
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Post by seraphim on Dec 23, 2008 20:00:30 GMT -5
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Post by dizzyjam on Dec 24, 2008 0:08:36 GMT -5
Ok...R.A. Lafferty, Cordwainer Smith, Walter Wanegrin, Gene Wolfe. The point raised I think has less to do with literary masterpieces than something that has more substance to it. The theology and worldview that informs and finds expression in Christian SFF stories should be thicker than and not able to be fit upon a bumper sticker. Much that passes for popular Christian writing fails one or both points...thin theology driving a sermon rigged out like a cheap model of the milennium falcon. Bad writing is bad writing and it shouldn't get a pass because some it matches a hole in some pre sanitized marketing niche. I guess I'm just not a fan of the latest apocolypic fad thinly reimagined as a spec fic novel or its ilk. So I take it you didn't like the Left Behind series? Personally, I like Jerry Jenkins, it's Tim LaHaye that ticks me off. He fancies himself a novelist just because his name is the "dominant" name on the book that he hires another author to write. And on his Babylon Rising series he just kept going through the authors too, didn't he? What happened there? Guess they didn't like him as well as Mr. Jenkins did. I like the fact that Mr. Jenkins like's some of the same authors as I do, and I liked some of the surprise twists he threw into the series he authored for LaHaye, but I had big problems with the theology put in there. This isn't the place for it, but even the theology and timelines put out by LaHaye's previous "non-fiction" books disagreed with certain things like the Russian attack at the beginning of the first book and such. Anyway, so a few questions on what you consider thick fiction: Does every story need a salvation experience? Can a story just simply involve Christians going through something that anyone else might have gone through, but it just happened to happen to them? And then the solution is something a Christian would know while the rest of the novel is just a great story leading up to it? How much Christian stuff needs to be in it, and how well phrased does everything have to be? Sincerely Simon, me like well very. I thought House was great by Dekker/Peretti, what did you think? Thick with words, or thick with spiritual things? How obvious do the spiritual things need to be? Maybe some people would write things a certain way and one person recognizes the spiritual parallels while another does not, does that mean it isn't thick enough or too thick maybe? Anyway, just a few questions you or anyone else can answer to share their opinion. It might help me in deciding a few things about the story I'm writing even now. By the way, all the authors you mentioned at the beginning aren't considered spec fic are they? Other than Gene Wolfe I really can't place the names and I don't remember Gene writing fiction I would be interested in. Unless I have him mixed up with another author. Are any of them Christian authors? There's so many in that list that Jeff has that I'm going to be reading stories for years to come now that I have a reliable list to go from. If they are on Jeff's list I'll check them out next time I'm purchasing from Amazon on what I'll consider your recommendation.
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Post by Divides the Waters on Dec 24, 2008 0:37:14 GMT -5
You know, it might behoove us to think about what defines a novel as "Christian." Is the main character a believer? Is the author a Christian, regardless of the content? Is it G-rated and mention God a lot? Does it pertain to Christian morality, even under other guises? Is it, rather, something to be sold almost exclusively to a Christian audience, and thus a sum of any or all of these parts?
I don't like a lot of "literary masterpieces," finding them as overblown and pretentious as the people who claim to love them. But I do like a high quality of writing, and find a few of the modern conventions a bit annoying (never use any word but "said," avoid adverbs, etc.), because over a century of great American and English writers have quite effectively used language to paint a picture that is richer than current standards will allow. I do realize that there was also a lot more "telling" than "showing" in the older forms, but that was because books were an attempt to extend the storyteller tradition, and it took a while for the authors to realize that they did not personally need to be involved in the novel itself; a story strong enough could work well on its own. But the degeneration of the English language and the laxity of standards has allowed authors not to become lazy, exactly (since the rules are much more specific than they ever were a hundred years ago), but to rely on the lowest common denominator when it comes to writing. By all means, avoid big words, because people might have to look them up. And keep the sentences short and sweet, because this is the TV generation, and even adults have the attention span of a five-year-old.
I think this is what most "literary" writers are concerned with and offended by. It's not that they have pretensions to be something great; it's that they don't want to stoop to be something average.
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Post by mongoose on Dec 24, 2008 10:36:00 GMT -5
And then there's those of us who throw the books aside, both the shallow and the literary, and want to scream, "Just tell me a good story, and put me there!" Dekker rawks, and if I could write like him, I'd be happy. He's a little wound up about being plot driven and keeping the pace quick and action packed like in a movie, but since I enjoy reading his books more than those by any other author, I guess it works.
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Post by seraphim on Dec 24, 2008 11:17:19 GMT -5
Absolutely not. How could you have a story about two Christians trying to work through a difficulty? Frankly, you don't even need Christians in the story...you can underscore/suggest Christian worldview either positivily or negatively through any human situation. What if you want to write a story exploring the theme of mercy...does it have to have explicitly Christian characters? I don't think so. However the argument that the story makes can easily point towards a Christian perspective. Why not? And why would the something known have to be exclusive to the Christian? What if its not a question of "knowing" that specaial something...but of actually having find the grace to live it, even at great cost? Not any explicitly Christian stuff needs to be in it. However it should be written with all the art and skill one posesses. Don't know, never read it. I've never read Dekker and the last thing I read of Peretti was the "This Present Darkness" series, which at the time I considered a very novel concept, and still do, however some aspects of his story I now regard as blaphemous and defamatory, especially with regard to the angelic character of Rafael, one of the Archangels who he made into a demon. To me that's just a short step imaginatively speaking from the likes of "The Last Tempation of Christ". I've got no time to waste with Chick tract 'theology' in novel form. That depends on the needs of the story. Onion soup and beef stew are both delicious, one thin one thick. What is important is that the flavors are clear and the meldings of flavor well balanced and well seasoned. I would however be cautious about writing a story just to get over some pet point of theology...that is the broad road to a novelized tract. Why not some obvious some not...reward patience. Just to bang my own drum a little (set the snooze now) My story "Ashangel" had a few very obvious elements such as a Christian high school, a little God-talk, icons, christian culture clashes,etc. Then it had layers of symbol and reference that a casual reader might miss. For example there's lots of water and lots of getting wet...someone might spot a baptism reference or two. But who will notice the name of a little starving dog and tease out what it means, and with it what the dog means, which to understand fully would take a little familiarity with the sayings of the desert fathers, in this case "A dog is better than I am for a dog loves always and I poor sinner am always judging others." Anyway suffice it so say there is a knot of Trinitarian imagery and theology invested in that little dog...but it is largely transparent. Also there is a friendly cat and mouse, which some might guess points to "the peacable kingdom" but might miss the implication of that relationship with their 'owner'. Also there is a small moment where the mouse is referenced in a pocket eating a peanut. If one is not familiar with the desert fathers then one would miss the reference to the prayer of the heart...of bringing the mind into union with the heart by use of the Jesus Prayer (Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, be merciful to me, a sinner). One of the desert fathers spoke of his mind as a little mouse that could not help but be busy with something as is its nature, so he gives it something to eat (the prayer) in order to keep it still. Or less complex there is an old man who wears a battered green John Deere cap...a seemingly innocuous detail...except that green is the color of Pentecost, and a deer is the symbol of the Resurrection. But the man himself is not preachy...he just collects and sells aluminum cans and lives his life doing what good he can when given the opportunity. But that too has meaning...his livelihood is quietly cleaning up other people's litter, bearing it, and transforming it (selling off). Hence we see in him an image of living prayer that is quiet, hidden, but powerfully effective. There's more, but that is enough to make my point. There is the story...the basic narrative of boy meets excentric trash man, but there is the deeper story carried by the interplay of carefully chosen details...and intrigue created once it is realized that there are very few details that don't point beyond themselves either metaphorically or referentially, which means it is the kind of story (hopefully) that one can come back to several times and keep discovering new things as their own frame of spiritual reference expands. They are all Christian authors. R.A. Laferty: One of the great writers of our time of any faith of any genre...and he wrote tons of SFF, won several awards, etc. Here is a bit of dialogue from his book Okla Hanali. I would eat beets for breakfast to be able to craft something this fine:"Pushmataha say that I leave my grin there grinning at him and walk out from behind it and take a ramble and a drink and a nap all the while he was hold his breath and swell up and turn purple and then I come back rested and slip into my grin again and so have him tricked" en.wikiquote.org/wiki/R._A._Laffertywww.sfwa.org/News/lafferty.htmwww.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/ea.cgi?R._A._LaffertyCordwainer Smith...aka Paul Linebarger who literally wrote the book on psychological warfare for the CIA. I'm guessing you've never read the Ballad of Lost C'Mell and its references to "the God hung high". This guy practically invented empires in outer space. www.cordwainer-smith.com/www.sunpopblue.com/Music-Art-Books/Cordwainer-Smith.htmlWalter Wangerin: Pardon me I misspelled his name. However, I you've never read Book of the Dun Cow and not met Canis Mundi Dog, Ebenezer Rat, John Wesley Weasel and the terrible Wyrm (Sum Wyrm sub terra. Videtat cadeum meum." Then you have missed the greatest Christian fable since Narnia went into print. walterwangerinjr.org/new_web/index.phpwww.greenmanreview.com/book/book_wangerin_bookoftheduncow.htmlGene Wolfe. This guy can write. His style is thick and rich and has layers upon layers and unless you know ahead of time you might not catch his treasure troves of Christian imagry at first ...or even second or third reading: superfastreader.com/the-book-of-the-new-sun-by-gene-wolfe.htm (read all the comments beyond the review) www.keithstrohm.com/from-the-shattered-drum/2007/2/16/the-sacramental-theology-of-gene-wolfe.html
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Post by kouter on Dec 24, 2008 13:00:30 GMT -5
I'm not too big on imagery and symbolism myself. Guess I'm just a simple kind of guy in that respect, or blunt, or unsophsticated, or whatever. I suppose it must take a fair but if skill to layer a basic story with image after image of double meaning. To make the reader say "Ah ha! Now I get it!" on his 20th re-reading. If this is what Seraphim meant by making a litary masterpiece then I can understand why he's so worried about writing one. I know i couldn't.
One key thing in all this literaty debate is to know your audience. I agree that writing has been sorta dumbed down to the lowest common denominator by the advent of film and TV, but if that's what the audience is willing to support, how can we change that?
I guess the answer is: just write what you write well, without fear of failure or success. If that masterpiece is in you, its in you.
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Post by seraphim on Dec 24, 2008 17:33:54 GMT -5
Well, I wouldn't say everything has to be a literary masterpiece...though one can aspire. I'm saying Christian writers should not settle for the Ned Flanders Seal of Safe and Thinly Disguised Prosylatory Literature...though doubtless there is some audience for it. Think outside the bumper sticker.
As for being multilayered, a well crafted multilayered story is no garrantee that it will be an interesting read. Case in point "Beast in the Jungle" by Henry James. This is a meticulously well crafted story, literary philo that eats like bakliva filled with unsalted potatoes. It is a snorefest about a man who wastes his life waiting for something great to happen...which event he knows will happen, so he does nothing his whole life lest he miss that one great thing. It is one grey monolith of prevarication, a total anti-adventure. And when I saw that...it hit me...the whole story is the retelling of the Aneid mirror image in a tea cup...every major plot point and character maps to the Aneid...but in contaform and written small.
As I said, it is a marvel of craftsmanship, intricately conceived and executed and it is excruciatingly dull.
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Post by torainfor on Dec 24, 2008 21:48:03 GMT -5
Divides, have you heard of the Kris Longknife series? I just discovered it about a month ago, and I've just finished the third book. Total rip-off of Elizabeth Moon, but since she wrote a blurb for the series, and the latest book has a starship captain named Elizabeth Luna, I'm thinking she knows.
Anywho, I was surprised when religious beliefs were given so much respect, but by the end of the third book, I'm amazed to read the main character is thinking she needs to figure out what her best friends' faith is all about. Wicked subtle undertones, but I'm enjoying the read.
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Post by dizzyjam on Dec 30, 2008 12:50:51 GMT -5
You responded very well, and I might be replying to more later, but for now I just want to comment on the authors: I haven't checked the links you posted yet, but I've checked the non-image link list Jeff has and I couldn't find any of them on there. Of course, Jeff's supposed to be updating that list too. And for the quote of the first author: I suppose I'd have to read it in context to understand why that moved you so much. For me, I didn't get it taken by itself. If these guys are spec-fic, I'll probably check them out, otherwise I might not. Can you give me some specific book recommendations of these guys? I mean beyond the couple you already mentioned. What would be good starting points?
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