Prophecy in the Modern World

[knightofhyn]

While I know this can be a controversial topic, I'm not wanting to debate whether it is or is not real in modern times. I'm saying for the purpose of this story it is really used and that God has granted a character with this particular gift. Just saying at the outset, don't want a fight, just some advice...

What do you think is the best way to show it? I'd had him have visions and dreams, but I'm not sure if it's too cliche and would love some help. He seems to border on discernment, seeing the truth about people, but also sees things in his dreams. He has a few conversations with an angel, who seems to be mildly amused by him, but I'm comfortable with that aspect.

Any advice?

[seraphim]

Then why not take a look at persons for whom these gifts are real? They might provide some ideas. Below are a couple of links one youtube interview one written remembrance of a recently reposed old elder from Romania. He had just such a discernment as did his own spiritual father and as do at least some of his spiritual children who are still with us.

Elder Cleopas interview on the stages of prayer, (the last he gave in this life)
www.youtube.com/watch?v=wOGXdLoNl2w

A written interview with Elder Cleopas and one with his spiritual father and teacher:
www.orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/counselromanianelders.aspx

A glimse of the life of Elder Michael who had the gift of clairvoyant discerning of hearts
misha.pblogs.gr/tags/elder-michael-valaam.html

Here is what is said of the gift of diakrisis held by Elder Porphyrhios

Every time he used his gift of discernment, (diakrisis) the hidden thoughts of the human mind were revealed to him. He was able, through the grace of God, to see the past, the present and the future all at the same time. He confirmed that God is all-knowing and all-powerful. He was able to observe and touch all creation, from the edges of the Universe to the depth of the human soul and history. St. Paul’s phrase "One and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills" (1.Cor.12:11) certainly held true for Elder Porphyrios. Naturally, he was a human being, and received divine grace, which comes from God. This God who for reasons of His own sometimes did not reveal everything. Life lived in grace is an unknown mystery for us. Any more talk on the matter would be a rude invasion into matters we don’t understand. The Elder always pointed this out to all those who attributed his abilities to something other than grace. He underlined this fact, again and again, saying "It’s not something that’s learnt. It’s not a skill. It is GRACE."

An overview of the life of Elder Porphyrios: www.orthodoxphotos.com/Orthodox_Elders/Greek/Fr._Porphyrios/index.shtml

Make no mistake, this man was cut of the same cloth as the great prophets and wonderworkers of the Church across the ages. Those who perhaps greater still living are yet hidden to us.

If you want a common thread that links these different men with their uncommon gifts, it is this...humility. They were simple and humble and the world was not worthy of them.

Look at the hearts of these men, how humility shaped them, then I think you will have a model for the type of man to whom a prophetic mantle can be entrusted. There are many more examples one could examine but these three presonality types should suffice: The joyful wise innocence of Elder Porphyrios, the firm, pragmatic, but loving sobriety of Elder Cleopas, and the deep quiet and patient inner suffering of Elder Michael.

[knightofhyn]

I'll definitely take a look at those, but let me just say, my character Hunter would find the idea of seeing the past, present and future all at once both creepy and head-splodey. And he doesn't really have a sense of humor.

[Nova]

Something interesting to note is that are modern idea of prophecy is someone telling the future however the biblical idea of Prophecy is about 25% future and the other 75% is more of a "telling the present." speaking out against injustices, and evil. For example the story of Jonah was not so much Jonah telling Nineveh this is going to happen it was more this is how it and you need to change.

[mongoose]

To see what prophecy should be, read 1 Corinthians 12-14. To see what it was in practice, under the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, read Acts. To see what it looks like today, in today's setting, look at your own life, or, if you don't hear from God yet (read the Bible and pray and ask him for the gifts and you'll realize He's given them to you) look at those who prophesy today.

My point is that it's not a big thing to prophesy, and it doesn't require any given personality, though prophets, as such, tend to have certain characteristics. Prophesy is simply hearing from God, which any Spirit Filled Christian can and should do fairly often, and speaking what God tells you to, when He tells you to, to whom He tells you to. It takes guts to speak out prophetically, but it's not an extraordinary experience to receive a prophetic word, picture, dream, vision or other revelation. I say this both from personal experience and from watching and listening to prophets and others through whom God spoke.

I do agree with Seraphim in that those who operated in the gift of prophecy as God meant for them to do, were and remain very humble about it. They are, after all, simply the mouthpiece. As Don Francisco said in one of his songs, if God starts using you "don't you pay it any mind. He could have used the dog next door if he'd been so inclined."

So in your story, if you want to be realistic about it, just have your character realize things, ask God if it's from Him, receive reassurance, ask God if he's supposed to communicate it to others, get a yes answer or or further direction, and follow it. Relatively simple, nothing spectacular, but it's mad cool that we can all walk in that way with the Holy Spirit.

[knightofhyn]

It just seemed to me that there was a difference between just being used occasionally and it happening often enough that someone looks over and says, "Hey, that means you're a prophet, doesn't it?"

My poor Hunter hears voices, sees things, sees shadows, walks and talks with angels, just knows things...

I guess my concern is the balance between lunacy, prophecy, and being viewed as a modern psychic. That and making him too...much. If you have a character who knows too much, it just seems to wreck things.

[seraphim]

Go for lunacy...or something near it. Check out this angle.

You might also consider something along Jonahesque lines...a man who ultimately does the right thing, but not before a vigorous wrestling match with his better angels. Someone who struggles but not to believe, rather to care...or more accurately to not care, because caring too much too openly is to be a living wound...a man fleeing his crosses only to run into them again and again, who in the extremis embraces them but is weary of the battle and wishes God would leave him be...just for a little while. Of course that's not going to happen, and he knows it.

[knightofhyn]

Sounds like Book 2... Stop reading my notes.

[mongoose]

Sounds like you know what you're doing, and I don't read anyone here sniping you. So you've come to a place where we like your ideas and may even read your work with interest, withholding judgment of your ideas until we taste the fruit so to speak. I say, go for it.

But in answer to a previous post of yours, don't people who really believe, mystics, those who have a relationship with the spiritual usually end up being viewed either as lunatics, witches or psychics? I mean, you can't wrap a logical, empirical world view around the miraculous or spiritual, so you have to tac on some other explanation that does work for you and for what you see happening. I suspect different people would tac on different explanations, but very few would acknowledge him as a prophet.

As for the difference between someone who's used prophetically and someone filling the office/ministry of the prophet (from the five fold or whatever ministry), if any of you know of a concise but reliable treatment of this I'd love to read it. I've done some looking myself, but have not found the answers I'm after. Here's my understanding so far:

All Christians should prophecy on occasion. The prophet is someone that God has commissioned to prophesy as their primary ministry, and on a regular basis. I've spoken prophetically, but there are those who come to our church who prophesy to the church and to individuals often enough that if I hear someone speaking out, even if I don't recognize the voice, I know where in the sanctuary to look for them. These individuals are probably prophets, as such. That is their ministry, as over and against pastoring, or evangelizing, or whatever. So what makes the difference? Is it really just a matter of degree with some arbitrary delineation? Are we just talking semantics, or is there a real and practical difference? I can't answer those questions, but maybe someone else here can.

[myrthman]

I heard just last night on a teaching that modern psychics are probably people gifted by God with prophecy but who choose to exercise that gift against the Kingdom of God. They pull people away from Him instead of toward Him, which is what true prophecy ought to do (Jonah, e.g.). As for going with lunacy, all I have is this (and it's not even mine originally!): "God chooses the foolish things to confound the wise." Go crazy for God! In your story and your life.

[fluke]

Let me just say I have dealt with the question of modern prophets and prophecy. I am a minister with the Assemblies of God and there are two articles on it that I can recommend.

One and two.

Frank Luke

[dizzyjam]

I think when we start talking about "humble" prophets and such, we need to remember the band of guys Jesus put together and realize that they really didn't change as much as we'd like to think they did. Certainly they became great men of God, but do you think they were suddenly sinless? Never to sin again? And if they did sin still, maybe it was the sins they had done before that were with their personalities to begin with? Don't forget, Paul acted one way (the way we usually ascribe to the "humble" and "holy") while Peter went an entirely different direction. And they disagreed publicly on one particular issue.

So, to use false descriptions to "judge" "modern" "Prophets" without even naming names leaves a lot of room for error to enter the mind of man. Let's take a person who recently went through such personal trauma that she had to stop going on TV. Whether she was a real prophet or not I won't say, but Juanita Bynum was certainly flamboyant. Now some would say that she got what she deserved, and those would be the ones that judged her before her husband attacked her anyway. There have been times in private I've felt the Spirit of God so strong that if I was in public my response might be considered either flamboyant or "attracting to myself" or whatever. I'm grateful it was in private and not public, but it gives me pause before I go and judge someone who doesn't "appear" to be "humble" and "holy" according to our false human standards, just because they're responding to the Spirit of God in public.

I've been very observant of prophets and people claiming to be used of God in prophecy. As such, without being any way negative toward those unnamed in this sentence, I can say from my time with God and how I've observed His Spirit moving with these few, I'll name three I believe God uses: my pastor Mike Franklin, Prophet Kim Clement, and Rick Joyner. I believe that God is on these three and that he is using them as needed, each in totally different ways.

Back to the novel for a moment. To give you a good idea on how to write a novel about a modern prophet I'd recommend Frank Peretti's "Prophet", and Ted Dekker's "Blink" (now redone and called "Blink of the Eye" - find a copy of the original, in my opinion it's better)

Hope this helps in the discussion.

[metalikhan]

I almost took this question to Learned Disputations but thought it would fit here just as well. Is the word of wisdom and word of knowledge each a part of the gift of prophecy or are they separate gifts? Is there a way to differentiate one from the other? Or is it even necessary to do so? Beyond that, is it necessary to be able to identify or label your spiritual gift(s) or do you simply operate in them as God moves you to do so?

I took a spiritual gifts class a couple of years ago; and our church is starting on the S.H.A.P.E. curriculum. So far, I haven't been able to answer the questions satisfactorily.

[knightofhyn]

I wasn't worried about people sniping me specifically about this topic (though I have felt a little beat up on in other topics as I couldn't really express my thought very well...which hurt cause I want to be a published writer and that implies expressing my opinion), my biggest concern was starting the very argument that would have gotten this moved to a Disputation thread.

I have not read the articles mentioned yet, please forgive me. Only have internet at work and I just found out someone has been corrupting my images with their own ideas of software, so the hammer had to come out...but I like some of the ideas.

I'm curious about this issue with the word of knowledge and wisdom. Hunter would say he has both, but not prophecy, but Aurora (pretty much his only friend by the end of the book) keeps calling him a prophet.

I have to admit, I'm not familiar with the Bynum story, though I know the name (used to work in Family Christian in Fayetteville, NC). The Joyner name sounds familiar...Divine Revelation series? What was it, Heaven, Hell and Angels, wasn't it?

My biggest concern is how it turned out when I borrowed his framework for another character in an online story. He became a god mode character quickly and I had to break him (literally, his spine) to keep him from being too much of an uber character and ruining the story. I played a lot with the quiet whisper voice God uses, having that in his ear as he acted, but would let him miss obvious things. His wife was killed and he couldn't prevent it. Things like that. And his major injury.

I like hearing from more "charismatic" believers on this topic. I seem to be the minority in my church. To my knowledge, only two members of my church would say the word prophecy in a modern day aspect...and the other one left to go start his own church in the community he lived in. Brilliant man, I miss him, but I know I'll see him again. Can't wait to hear how his church has done.

Do you guys think that the quiet whisper is appropriate or do you think I should try to use more of the dreams and visions? And further, if I do the latter, would he come across to the readers as being just a Christian psychic? Your feedback is very helpful...I'm hoping to pitch this to Marcher Lord eventually...

[torainfor]

I took the SHAPE a while back. I think there is a difference between knowledge, wisdom, and prophesy. Knowledge is being able to look at the Bible and see connections, really be excited about the nitty-gritty. Wisdom is being able to take that and apply it to daily life. Prophesy is being able to take that wisdom and, through special relevation, see how it relates to someone else's life--especially if it involves details you wouldn't know otherwise.

I knew a prophet. She was pretty abrasive when God set her loose to confront someone. She was also very astute when it came to personalities, even with very limited information. I lean much more toward knowledge. I am not particularly people-savvy (my actions and reactions are more based on fact and truth (as far as I know them) than reading other people), and if I have any gift of teaching (which is like knowledge+speaking), it's very underdeveloped!