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Post by fluke on Mar 13, 2009 20:23:02 GMT -5
Either one is appropriate. You could even do both at different times. Maybe even learning to hear the quiet whisper is part of his spiritual journey.
Could you address the Christian psychic possibility in the book? Maybe he could even broach it with Aurora or another character. And she explain to him that the difference in a prophet and psychic is where the power comes from and how it is used. Is it used to glorify God and advance His will or is it used to glorify Hunter?
Frank
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Post by myrthman on Mar 13, 2009 21:30:46 GMT -5
What I understand of prophecy from the unction of the Holy Spirit is that it's more forth-telling than foretelling and it's intended to bring glory to God, edify believers, and agree with Holy Scripture. Paul instructs the Church to let the elders judge prophecy as it is uttered. Elders should be able to tell, without running for a concordance, if an utterance glorifies God, edifies believers, and agrees with Scripture.
Beyond those qualifications, prophecy comes in all sorts of forms: some people see colors or visions, some get impressions, some get specific words, some see specific words (see Daniel 5), some have dreams. You can find examples of all of these in the Bible, Old and New Testaments. I have brought forth a word of prophecy a few times and usually I see a globe and a highlighted country or a country's flag; I then know to pray in intercession for Christians in those countries. I'm also a geographer by training so God uses that to speak to me specifically.
IMHO, any or all of these would make a great story. The prophecy in your story will really become a vehicle for your character's personal journey. Hammer that out first and the vehicle will take shape around it.
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Post by mongoose on Mar 14, 2009 3:42:19 GMT -5
Once it's all written down, you can worry about the balance between Character's inner journey and the need for fast paced action, and the balance between communicating your theme and avoiding getting preachy, and how much time and detail will you put into describing the doctrine of prophecy that you're assuming for your story, vs. letting the reader discover what you believe as your characters discover the truth of the story universe. Fun stuff, eh?
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Post by dizzyjam on Mar 14, 2009 7:17:55 GMT -5
I took the SHAPE a while back. I think there is a difference between knowledge, wisdom, and prophesy. Knowledge is being able to look at the Bible and see connections, really be excited about the nitty-gritty. Wisdom is being able to take that and apply it to daily life. Prophesy is being able to take that wisdom and, through special relevation, see how it relates to someone else's life--especially if it involves details you wouldn't know otherwise. I will have to bring a slight correction here in pertaining to knowledge, wisdom and prophecy. First, certainly the gifts of Word of Knowledge and Word of Wisdom are different gifts from the gift of Prophecy. If they were just one gift I don't think Paul would have separated them out as he does in 1 Corinthians. Second, certainly in their most basic forms knowledge and wisdom when it comes to reading the Bible are how you describe them. Where I disagree with you is by ascribing that method of obtaining knowledge and wisdom to the spiritual supernatural gifts of Word of Knowledge and Word of Wisdom and then I also disagree with you that you need to go about obtaining knowledge and having wisdom about that knowledge before you can get a revelation from God to be used for the prophetic. God will reveal to anyone anything He wishes to regardless of their education or knowledge. Knowledge is something you obtain for information. Acquired knowledge is knowledge we obtain with our five senses. This is knowledge such as fire is bright and can hurt you if you touch it. A Word of Knowledge is revealed knowledge not obtained through our five senses. This is knowledge God has obtained and chooses to share with us. It's like being told by someone that knows you have never seen fire that fire is both bright and can hurt you if you touch it. You have never seen fire before, but now you have knowledge about it that you can use when you do come across it that was revealed to you by someone else. A great example of God giving a Word of Knowledge is if one was to encounter someone for the first time and then realize that the person is an alcoholic. What you do with that knowledge then requires wisdom, but not necessarily a Word of Wisdom. Wisdom is correct application of knowledge. Just knowing the fire is bright and can hurt you if you touch it isn't enough. Wisdom let's you know not to touch it. But it also let's you know that it will keep you warm when the night gets cold and keeping a certain distance from it will ensure both safety and warmth. A Word of Wisdom is where God tells you how to do something and you didn't have the knowledge to make that ascertation of wisdom. A practical application of this would be knowing to tell someone to sell their largest stock instead of the one they were planning on selling. You have no knowledge of the stocks they own. You don't know the amounts. You don't know if they went up or down yesterday or last week. You don't know when they were bought. You don't know a lot of things here because you are lacking KNOWLEDGE in this matter. But God has both knowledge and wisdom and he chose to share with you some wisdom and for you to give that Word of Wisdom to whomever it was to go to. Prophecy then is being able to foretell events as God reveals to you what to say about them. Some can be very specific. Some can be very vague. Some can be veiled in parables, while some can be very direct and to the point albeit confusing (a virgin shall give birth? Huh?). Prophecy can be both short-term and long-term. (I want to say a joke about mid-terms here, but I'll keep it to myself). Prophecy is being used today and can be combined with the previous two gifts mentioned which is why some people lump them all together. These are three separate gifts and should be treated as such. I hope this has added some value to the discussion. Be encouraged, David
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Post by mongoose on Mar 14, 2009 13:49:07 GMT -5
I understand and agree with what David said about the gifts of knowledge, wisdom, and prophecy, except when it comes to the practice of the gifts. What's the difference when it comes to speaking it, whether it's knowledge, wisdom or prophesy? Are not all of the speaking gifts matters of hearing from God and speaking what He says? And why would I care which gift I was using? It's all for His glory and the blessing of the people around me anyway.
Now, in a story the characters could certainly have the discussion we're having here, and throw in a cessationist and an empiracist just to make things interesting. But I would hope that the primary character at least would realize that it was, as I've said, simply a matter of hearing from God and obeying Him.
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Post by torainfor on Mar 14, 2009 16:26:41 GMT -5
Putting "a Word of" before gifts of knowledge and wisdom make them sound like different aspects of prophesy. I don't think the expression of all spiritual gifts all the time always have to be initiated by special relevation. Service is my bent. Sometimes God shows me where it's needed or gives me more strength for it. Sometimes it's just me, preferring to tear down the church equipment instead of wandering around the gym, talking to random people.
Same with knowledge. Sometimes it's inspired, sometimes it's just me using whatever cleverness He gave me.
But I didn't mean to infer that knowledge or wisdom were speaking gifts. (Or were even particularly related to prophesy, which is.) Knowledge + speaking is probably more teaching. Wisdom + speaking would be preaching. Or maybe the other way around. I don't have a speaking gift. I get up to explain something I've discovered, and the words float around the room until they hit stone-blank faces that have no idea what I've just said. (My poor husband! He tries so hard!)
Sorry, I also didn't mean to infer you needed to buck up on your knowledge before you receive a prophetic impulse or word. In general, it helps to know something, though. Sure, God could tell you to pray for Zambia, but it would help if you knew Africa existed, first. Or the lady at the church I used to go to. She told me something about my in-laws' personalities that is obvious to those who have known them for a while and are half-way spiritually astute. But she'd only spoken with them for a few minutes, and they were on best church behavior. Still, she didn't have the insight until she had spoken to them.
(Which, of course isn't to say that she couldn't have received specific revelation. "There are people, somewhere, who are thus and thus." Just that Jonah knew Ninevah existed. Nathan knew David. I can't think of a prophesy that didn't have a context that didn't have some aspect that the prophet could relate to. Although, I'm sure John and Isaiah said, "Huh?" more than once.)
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Post by dizzyjam on Mar 14, 2009 20:10:19 GMT -5
torainfor,
I'm not sure exactly what point of view you are coming from. There are so many "general" points of view out there (Calvins, Lutherans, Baptists, Pentecostals, etc.) that many people ascribe to, yet there are also individual viewpoints that offshoot from these and others. Since I haven't spent time studying different viewpoints, rather I studied the Bible and listened to many preachers of various denominations and let the Holy Spirit establish what is true within me, I could be very ignorant of just which viewpoint you ascribe to. Of course, it could just be that we are on different pages of the same topic.
When I use "a Word of" I am quoting Bible, not adding my own words to the conversation. If you have an issue with the wording take it up with the interpreters and the original writers. Here's the passage I was referring to when I quoted the Bible, specifically verse 8:
1 Corinthians 12:7-11
7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8) For to one is given by the Spirit the WORD OF wisdom; to another the WORD OF knowledge by the same Spirit;
9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
(capitalization is mine)
The exact wording of "word of" is the same in the New American Standard Bible:
8) For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit;
In the Amplified "Word" is changed to "message" for wisdom while the other one stays the same with both having the amplified implied meaning to both included:
8) To one is given in and through the [Holy] Spirit [the power to speak] a message of wisdom, and to another [the power to express] a word of knowledge and understanding according to the same [Holy] Spirit;
These are all translations used by many preachers and teachers to preach and teach out of. I'll also include a couple of versions that are popular, but are considered more paraphrase or rephrase versions. Neither include the phrase "Word of" in it.
The New Living Translation says this:
8) To one person the Spirit gives the ability to give wise advice; to another the same Spirit gives a message of special knowledge.
The Message version says this:
8) wise counsel, clear understanding,
I don't normally throw this much scripture out when discussing with a believer on casual things, but this is something I learned at an early age and I knew exactly which part of scripture I was using when I said what I said on here. Perhaps I should have quoted it in my last post, but I thought everyone here would know it. So I used enough versions here to hopefully make sure the usage is clearly known now. And if it wasn't a Bible quotation issue, rather just a personal viewpoint issue, I would have just let this go because I don't want this to be an argument. I hope I've come across the way I intend and that I haven't said anything to offend you.
Also, I agree that if you already have knowledge (or the capacity for knowledge) about something God can use you on things he can't use others. An example is that most Christians wouldn't know how to hang with a Satanist in casual conversation as a living witness of Christ. That just blows people's minds most of the time, but I've hung with Satanists, Wiccans, and people that dabble with astrology and other New Age things. I've had deep conversations with them and have told my story and accepted them as individuals. I believe seeds were both planted and watered in those instances. The ones I remember I pray for as I think of them. The ones I don't remember I pray for in general. God will reach who He needs to when He needs to.
Incidentally, it's ironic you mentioned praying for Zambia. My wife moved here from Zambia before we met. She was born and raised there from a native family. We have one son who recently turned 3 and are expecting our first daughter in early July. So that was very interesting indeed your mentioning it. Perhaps the Spirit led you to say that without your knowing it? Who knows? Very interesting.
Be encouraged,
David
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Post by mongoose on Mar 14, 2009 23:00:09 GMT -5
Forgive me if I overstep the bounds of my knowledge here, but I'm convinced that torainfor and dizzyjam believe and are preaching the same concepts and viewpoints when it comes to the spiritual gifts. The only differences between their views regard what terms to use, and when and how to use those terms. So once those definitions are hammered out, they'll find they do the same things at the same times for the same reasons. I say this, and most of the other things I post, as one who grew up Charismatic but is now more Pentecostal, with a large dose of Methodism to temper the enthusiasm that runs rampant in the first group.
I'll point out one verse in particular that one of them quoted: 1st Corinthians 12:11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
So it's not up to us. It's up to the Spirit of God to give whatever gifts He will, to whatever extent He will, to whomever He will, for whatever purposes.
By speaking gifts, I refer to those gifts which often include speaking, as indicated by the whole "word of" phrase. But that term "speaking gifts" has no more significance than any other two words in this context. It's simply a classification of some of the gifts. Call them what you will, as long as we both know that we're talking about the words of wisdom, words of knowledge and prophesy.
The more relevant question, IMHO, is whether any given individual is given the gift of . . . or if God simply inspired them with a word of . . . for a particular instance. There are those with the gift of prophesy, or whom we might call prophets. And then there are those that receive a prophetic word now and then, but who are not prophets per sey. Not that it makes much difference when God tells them to say something. Either one can be used powerfully by God in the same way, whether or not it's their primary ministry or office. I believe the same could be said of any of those seven Charismatic gifts. Any of can heal in Jesus' name, and then there are those with the gift of healing. Any might have faith for something or other, and then there are those gifted with great faith. And so for any of the others.
But this distinction isn't there so that we can discriminate amongst each other, where one would say, "I have the gift of prophesy, and you only have the gift of tongues, and prophesy is greater than tongues so I am greater than you." No, the one who would be first must be the servant of all. "I have the gift of toilet cleaning (or service)." But they'll be humble about it, as Seraphim aptly pointed out. I get sick of people comparing giftings or signs and wonders or spiritual experiences and judging the conditions of other people's souls based thereupon. They have no right, nor do they have enough information. As verse 11 shows, the Holy Spirit does what He wants, when He wants, with whom He wants, for His own purposes, regardless of the worthiness or lack thereof of the vessel.
So how does this apply in a person's life? I can only speak to myself. I am a speaker. God gave me a gift for speech and public speaking from a very early age, if not from the beginning. The gifts are without repentance, my church believes, which means that no matter what I do right or wrong, I will always have a gift for public speaking. On top of that, on occasion, God has revealed something to me that He wanted me to communicate to someone. I don't know if it was wisdom, knowledge, or prophecy, and I don't care. Let's just say it was prophecy. Then, on top of that, it has been prophesied, by a prophet, that I would become a prophet. I don't believe I am such yet, and I don't know if that word was from God or not. It's up to Him whether or not it's His will for me to be a prophet, and up to me to obey if He does instruct me so.
So there are those three levels: Being gifted, using an annointing that's granted for a specific instance, and having one of the Spiritual gifts to fulfill a particular ministry role. Paul wanted all of us to prophecy, but we know from other passages that there would be apostles, prophets, etc. as different ministers filling different offices. So when we say that a character is a prophet, it means something different than when we say that they are an apostle who passed on a prophetic word, or that they flow in the prophetic, or that they forth-told the Word of God (prophesied).
It's useful for discussion to understand these definitions, or whatever definitions you're using, but in the stories we don't want to stop to explain these things. Let your readers hold the debates after they read it, about whether your character was apostle or prophet, or had the gift of words of wisdom or words of knowledge. For the story, just show us what happened.
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Post by dizzyjam on Mar 15, 2009 13:07:15 GMT -5
Even more clarification from Mongoose. Good job, buddy! You brought up something else I was thinking on, but didn't want to overwhelm people more than I may already have during my last post. There are definitely instances where the gift is used by someone (whatever gift it may be of the nine gifts), there are people that God occasionally uses with the gift, and then there are those he has called to walk in a gift. Very good. Thanks for adding that to the discussion. And I agree with you on what you said about the writing of the novel. Let the audience debate it later, just show what happened.
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Post by torainfor on Mar 15, 2009 18:48:33 GMT -5
Re: Zambia: LOL! Maybe it was divine. Maybe because the couple that hosts our Bible study were both MKs there and speak of it often, although they didn't meet until they returned to the States.
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Post by knightofhyn on Apr 1, 2009 9:42:16 GMT -5
All of this has been very helpful. I'm hoping to start working on a rewrite of the story soon, as soon as I finish the rough of my current project. I used the time I was working on the current project to let the story rest in my mind...it was getting hard to tell if the first few chapters were boring because they were boring or because I'd read them a few dozen times.
Of course...we're nearing six months and that's a little longer than the usual few days/weeks recommended, but hey, what can you do?
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Post by mongoose on Apr 20, 2009 0:43:13 GMT -5
Speaking of prophecy, words of knowledge and words of wisdom, there's an instance (more than one, actually) in my story in which God reveals his will to one of my PCs, who is, in the old testament sense, a prophet. I had him staring into a camp fire and seeing a montage of news broadcasts from the future, telling him what would happen, and what he was supposed to do about it. Newbury Dave read it and advised me that although that sort of prophecy scene is often used in speculative Christian media, it's campy, cliche and unrealistic. As much as I bucked against changing my original idea, I took his advice to re-write it to play out the way that my own prophetic experiences with God play out.
When I finished re-writing it, it was a conversation between the PC and God, in which God was very vague in His assertions and directions, but the PC came to an acceptance that God's grace would be sufficient, and that he had enough Faith therein to continue to follow God, even though God didn't give him the details.
Another approach I can think of is Ted Dekker's in "Blessed Child" Now that I think of it, it's very similar to the way Elijah is described as ministering. Neither account chronicles just what God said, but both characters seem very confident that God wants them to say and do the things they're saying and doing. In the end God honors them and what they say will happen, happens, and what they do works. Of course, that doesn't tell you much about the inner journey of the character. You get more of that in "A Man Called Blessed," and in the story of Elijah's journey to Mt. Horeb.
So, to re-iterate, what is your experience of the prophetic? How do you believe it works? We do best when we write what we know, rather than making up what we'd like to think it could be like.
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Post by metalikhan on Apr 24, 2009 4:32:38 GMT -5
I am not gifted as a prophet; but I think there have been times when God gave me a "word of..." gift. It occurs in one to one conversation; and my experience of it has three hallmarks. One is that I can't remember verbatim what I spoke — I can only recapture the drift of it. It causes me to think that the exact wording is specifically for the ears of the one person at that moment.
Another is an odd focusing sensation similar to (but not exactly the same as) what I have when I write or draw or make something. The closest metaphor I can think of to illustrate is a magnifying glass — I am the glass through which light passes and briefly focuses to a pinpoint. I am neither the light nor the focal point; I am only the glass.
The third hallmark is in the other person's response. It is never "That's what I wanted to hear". More often, it's "That's what I needed to hear" or some version of "Now I understand", followed by godly life or attitude changes such as an increase in faith or fervor in pursuing God's will.
Sometimes it occurs in conjunction with the primary gifts God gave me; sometimes it's isolated, quite apart from anything else I may be doing or thinking about. Usually, I don't have enough time to re-examine each occurrence for any longer than it takes to say, Thank You, Lord, for giving me what so&so needed to hear right now; let it bear fruit as You will.
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Post by bethatasitmay on Jun 27, 2012 10:10:32 GMT -5
Is your character keeping a journal?
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